Racism in football (John Terry spin-off)

[No Fixed Abode]

Absolutely ridiculous. PC gone mad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29996225

20% target of BME managers by 2020.

Surely it's best man for the job, not colour.

The two things needn't be mutually exclusive. At the moment we have neither because colour is preventing the best person from getting the job in many cases.

Evidence?

[Ouroboros]

Hi NFA

I wrote all this out for Floyd a couple of pages back. He didn't really manage to reply to it properly, but you can feel free to have a crack at it if you fancy.

Floyd.

I googled this in literally 5 seconds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3885213.stm

And this:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/o ... undercover

When I said that "it seems the reality is that discrimination exists" I mean that employers are often shown to be treating candidates differently based only on their race even though the candidates are fake and have ALL THE RELEVANT EXPERIENCE REQUIRED

Of course I'm with you that football has shown itself time and time again to be a bastion of racial-equality and modern liberal values, and that the people who run football clubs are amongst the most decent, forward-looking and fair people in the world.

However, there is still evidence that despite the large number of black people in the game (and yes, I'm going to carry on talking about black people, even though you still seem to think that Arsene Wenger is relevant to a debate about racial discrimination of black people), there aren't a proportionate amount ending up as managers of football clubs.

I agree there are lots of different reasons why this is the case, and many of them occur prior to a CV landing on the desk of a chairman. But yeah, I'm going to start with the assumption that black prospective managers have to overcome the unconscious racial discrimination of their prospective employer, because stacks of evidence says that's the way human beings are.

[No Fixed Abode]

But that's just your opinion. How can you prove anyone is being racist by not appointing BME managers? You can't, other than say there aren't enough in managerial positions.

[Ouroboros]

Did you read the links?

It's not my opinion, it's studies demonstrating that a foreign name results in professional disadvantage.

We know that professional discrimination exists. No, I can't prove that discrimination exists in football. It might be a bastion of egality and fairness.

Seems unlikely though, right? Why would football, largely populated by cunts and morons, be any different from anywhere else?

[Extended-Phenotype]

But that's just your opinion.

Er, no it isn't.

HTH

[No Fixed Abode]

It's not my opinion, it's studies demonstrating that a foreign name results in professional disadvantage.

Foreign names a professional disadvantage?

Mourinho
Van Gaal
Pellegrini
Wenger
Pochetino
Koeman
Martinez
Poyet

All in charge of some of the biggest clubs in this Country.

[Ouroboros]

It's not my opinion, it's studies demonstrating that a foreign name results in professional disadvantage.

Foreign names a professional disadvantage?

Yes, it's proven by the studies.

In football? Obviously not. Does that demonstrate that racial discrimination doesn't exist in football? Obviously not.

Try again?

[No Fixed Abode]

It's not my opinion, it's studies demonstrating that a foreign name results in professional disadvantage.

Foreign names a professional disadvantage?

Yes, it's proven by the studies.

In football? Obviously not. Does that demonstrate that racial discrimination doesn't exist in football? Obviously not.

Try again?

Sorry, I thought this thread was in General FOOTBALL.

Try again indeed.

[Ouroboros]

Are you struggling to follow this?

It's possible for one form of discrimination to exist without others. I don't think that French managers have a hard time in English football. I do think that black English managers do.

Not too tricky, right?

The studies in those links, btw, were using African and Asian names.

[Extended-Phenotype]

NO YOU WRONG COS MOURINHO IS FORIEN NAME

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Surely the main point of relevance is how many black coaches have taken their pro licence?

If someone could tell me what % of qualified coaches are black then we can begin to see the scale of the problem

[Extended-Phenotype]

Surely the main point of relevance is how many black coaches have taken their pro licence?

If someone could tell me what % of qualified coaches are black then we can begin to see the scale of the problem

Here:

http://www.google.co.uk/

Apparently you will find the answer in there somewhere.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Surely the main point of relevance is how many black coaches have taken their pro licence?

If someone could tell me what % of qualified coaches are black then we can begin to see the scale of the problem

Here:

http://www.google.co.uk/

Apparently you will find the answer in there somewhere.

I've looked and are clearly incapable of getting the correct data. *****

To have a proper discussion that data is required. And I don't accept the argument that potential black managers are being put off taking badges (which seems to be the argument when it is bought up there aren't many) due to thinking they won't get a job. That's just weak fluff. Anyone sitting there thinking they want someone else to do all the donkey work for them and pave their way is not someone who should be trusted with a multi-million pound business


***** AND WHY THE F*CK CAN'T YOU DO THAT ON THE COALITION THREAD?

[John Madejski's Wallet]

fwiw I do believe there are issues in football, but I don't think its as clearcut as many make out and I don't think racism is the sole issue

[No Fixed Abode]

Are you struggling to follow this?

It's possible for one form of discrimination to exist without others. I don't think that French managers have a hard time in English football. I do think that black English managers do.

Not too tricky, right?

.

A bit racist of you to assume that all black managers have 'foreign' names.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Surely the main point of relevance is how many black coaches have taken their pro licence?

If someone could tell me what % of qualified coaches are black then we can begin to see the scale of the problem

Here:

http://www.google.co.uk/

Apparently you will find the answer in there somewhere.

I've looked and are clearly incapable of getting the correct data. *****

***** AND WHY THE F*CK CAN'T YOU DO THAT ON THE COALITION THREAD?

That was the satire, Einstein.

[Ouroboros]

Are you struggling to follow this?

It's possible for one form of discrimination to exist without others. I don't think that French managers have a hard time in English football. I do think that black English managers do.

Not too tricky, right?

.

A bit racist of you to assume that all black managers have 'foreign' names.

I haven't made that assumption. I've used the fact that foreign names confer a professional disadvantage to show that employers racially discriminate.

Try again?

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Are you struggling to follow this?

It's possible for one form of discrimination to exist without others. I don't think that French managers have a hard time in English football. I do think that black English managers do.

Not too tricky, right?

.

A bit racist of you to assume that all black managers have 'foreign' names.

I haven't made that assumption. I've used the fact that foreign names confer a professional disadvantage to show that employers racially discriminate.

Try again?

tbf you were the one using an unrelated study showing the effect of foreign names and using that to extrapolate to football managers. I feel dirty sticking up for Kes here, but he rightly pointed out that study has naff all relevance to football (where foreign names are often lauded). Especially as many of the black former players would have entirely English names.

There are two different conversations going on here

[Ouroboros]

No, JMW.

I've been pretty clear that the studies aren't about football and don't prove discrimination in football exists.

I originally posted the links in answer to Floyd's position that subconscious racial discrimination isn't a real phenomenon.

As we know that it is, my point is that actually you're a fool to look at the situation of black english managers and say "until I have evidence specific cases of discrimination in this environment then I won't believe it exists." With what we know very surely about human nature we should be comfortable with the working assumption that as a young aspiring english manager, being black disadvantages your job prospects.

And you might have missed that the study uses African and Asian names. Clearly employing a Frenchman and employing a black englishman are different things, and I don't understand why the success of largely white europeans in big managerial roles should be of any solace to black english managers.

Surely the link isn't too hard to grasp here? I realise that black english managers largely have english names. But when one study shows that names suggesting African heritage confer a professional disadvantage, is it an outlandish leap to suggest that black skin might do the same?

Do you suppose that if I spend more than 5 seconds googling "racial discrimination" I'd not be able to find a study specifically about discrimination based on skin colour?

[John Madejski's Wallet]

But when one study shows that names suggesting African heritage confer a professional disadvantage, is it an outlandish leap to suggest that black skin might do the same?

Do you suppose that if I spend more than 5 seconds googling "racial discrimination" I'd not be able to find a study specifically about discrimination based on skin colour?

Jesus Christ man, of course you would. Only a total div would argue there isn't racial discrimination in the workplace (I'll hold my hand up to have occasionally done it), but I absolutely do not believe it can be extrapolated to football.

For that I want to see some extra data. e.g. how many BMEs have taken their badges, and what is the education background of black English footballers compared to the white ones of the same period, that kind of thing.

I do obviously think some racial discrimination exists. I just think more of the problems may be associated with things deeper into society (and specifically into the black footballing areas) than a simple issue of skin colour. Which makes target setting just to the % of BME footballers just plain stupid