Record Watch 23/24

[Stranded]

Quite, it's a football league record - the all time record at any level in England is AFC Wimbledon's 130 points when winning the CCL Premier League - they also scored 180 goals that season with their top scorer netting 53 time.

Our 106 season remains the professional record in England. The National League isn't a completely professional division - this season Maidenhead, Dorking, Wealdstone and Oxford City are all semi-professional sides.

On the flip side, there are three professional clubs in the National League North (Scunthorpe; South Shields; King's Lynn) and four in the South (Yeovil; Torquay; Maidstone; Eastbourne). There's additionally one side in the seventh tier (Dulwich Hamlet) who are professional.

The definition of 'professional' is a bit blurred, although apparently the only official difference is semi-professional clubs pay their players during the football season (basically a few weeks before the competitive season starts until the end of the competitive season) whilst professional clubs pay their players all year (including when the off-season). A lot of 'professional' players in the National League and lower still have second jobs and train on a part-time basis, despite being officially classified as full professionals. It's likely even more clubs in the National League and lower are effectively semi-pro clubs; Dulwich Hamlet consider themselves semi-pro, despite fitting the professional category as defined above, as they train part-time.

It's likely Wrexham got as many as 111 points was due to their players training full-time (among other things ), whilst most of the other sides in the division were training part-time.

Surely the term ‘professional’ became redundant years ago.
Every team in the National Leagues and Southern league and equivalent and probably lower pay their players, at most clubs you have contracted players who get a guaranteed weekly wage whether they play or not and non contracted players who get paid when they play.

Well its not redundant as most would take "professional" to mean football is their main job, they train daily etc though may have a secondary form of income. I had a friend I used to work with who played for Hayes & Yeading amongst others, he was paid a weekly amount from them but it was very much a secondary income and they only trained twice a week - other teams as mentioned elsewhere at a similar level may well be professional but any record at a level where clubs are run differently should be discounted when looking at any footballing record.

[Crusader Royal]

Our 106 season remains the professional record in England. The National League isn't a completely professional division - this season Maidenhead, Dorking, Wealdstone and Oxford City are all semi-professional sides.

On the flip side, there are three professional clubs in the National League North (Scunthorpe; South Shields; King's Lynn) and four in the South (Yeovil; Torquay; Maidstone; Eastbourne). There's additionally one side in the seventh tier (Dulwich Hamlet) who are professional.

The definition of 'professional' is a bit blurred, although apparently the only official difference is semi-professional clubs pay their players during the football season (basically a few weeks before the competitive season starts until the end of the competitive season) whilst professional clubs pay their players all year (including when the off-season). A lot of 'professional' players in the National League and lower still have second jobs and train on a part-time basis, despite being officially classified as full professionals. It's likely even more clubs in the National League and lower are effectively semi-pro clubs; Dulwich Hamlet consider themselves semi-pro, despite fitting the professional category as defined above, as they train part-time.

It's likely Wrexham got as many as 111 points was due to their players training full-time (among other things ), whilst most of the other sides in the division were training part-time.

Surely the term ‘professional’ became redundant years ago.
Every team in the National Leagues and Southern league and equivalent and probably lower pay their players, at most clubs you have contracted players who get a guaranteed weekly wage whether they play or not and non contracted players who get paid when they play.

Well its not redundant as most would take "professional" to mean football is their main job, they train daily etc though may have a secondary form of income. I had a friend I used to work with who played for Hayes & Yeading amongst others, he was paid a weekly amount from them but it was very much a secondary income and they only trained twice a week - other teams as mentioned elsewhere at a similar level may well be professional but any record at a level where clubs are run differently should be discounted when looking at any footballing record.

Professional means you get paid for it !
Ronaldo’s ‘main job’ isn’t playing football, he earns way more from other activities. Lots of lower league players earn 100% of their income from football although not necessarily from a contract with a club, does that make them fully professional ?
I think you’ll struggle to argue the bit about ‘clubs being run differently’. That suggests any record set by Man City should be discounted because they are run differently to Luton !
I don’t think calling our record the ‘professional’ record makes any sense anyway as football doesn’t recognise ‘professional’ as a thing any more. It’s a Football League record, end of.

[Sutekh]

Surely the term ‘professional’ became redundant years ago.
Every team in the National Leagues and Southern league and equivalent and probably lower pay their players, at most clubs you have contracted players who get a guaranteed weekly wage whether they play or not and non contracted players who get paid when they play.

Well its not redundant as most would take "professional" to mean football is their main job, they train daily etc though may have a secondary form of income. I had a friend I used to work with who played for Hayes & Yeading amongst others, he was paid a weekly amount from them but it was very much a secondary income and they only trained twice a week - other teams as mentioned elsewhere at a similar level may well be professional but any record at a level where clubs are run differently should be discounted when looking at any footballing record.

Professional means you get paid for it !
Ronaldo’s ‘main job’ isn’t playing football, he earns way more from other activities. Lots of lower league players earn 100% of their income from football although not necessarily from a contract with a club, does that make them fully professional ?
I think you’ll struggle to argue the bit about ‘clubs being run differently’. That suggests any record set by Man City should be discounted because they are run differently to Luton !
I don’t think calling our record the ‘professional’ record makes any sense anyway as football doesn’t recognise ‘professional’ as a thing any more. It’s a Football League record, end of.

Technically professional does not mean getting paid for it, though it is implicit that it must carry monetary remuneration. The definition of professional in this instance would be someone who is involved in an activity as a source of livelihood or as a career.

So most of the players outside of the top 4 divisions in this country are not professionals as football is likely to be secondary to their main career.

[Crusader Royal]

Well its not redundant as most would take "professional" to mean football is their main job, they train daily etc though may have a secondary form of income. I had a friend I used to work with who played for Hayes & Yeading amongst others, he was paid a weekly amount from them but it was very much a secondary income and they only trained twice a week - other teams as mentioned elsewhere at a similar level may well be professional but any record at a level where clubs are run differently should be discounted when looking at any footballing record.

Professional means you get paid for it !
Ronaldo’s ‘main job’ isn’t playing football, he earns way more from other activities. Lots of lower league players earn 100% of their income from football although not necessarily from a contract with a club, does that make them fully professional ?
I think you’ll struggle to argue the bit about ‘clubs being run differently’. That suggests any record set by Man City should be discounted because they are run differently to Luton !
I don’t think calling our record the ‘professional’ record makes any sense anyway as football doesn’t recognise ‘professional’ as a thing any more. It’s a Football League record, end of.

Technically professional does not mean getting paid for it, though it is implicit that it must carry monetary remuneration. The definition of professional in this instance would be someone who is involved in an activity as a source of livelihood or as a career.

So most of the players outside of the top 4 divisions in this country are not professionals as football is likely to be secondary to their main career.

I guess we could disappear into semantic discussions and never reach a conclusion !
I’d say plenty of players outside the FL play for the money rather than as a hobby. Even below the National League set ups players can earn quite significant sums. Being a secondary income doesn’t mean they aren’t professional.

[rabidbee]

If 'professional' means getting paid any amount to play, what would that leave 'semi-professional' to mean? Paid half the time? Paid in agricultural produce rather than money?

I think most people understand professional to mean that the game is the player's main occupation, enabling them to dedicate themselves full-time to training, unlike semi-pros, who might receive a fee for playing, but who have to balance training around their main occupation.

[Silver Fox]

Fvcking hell

106 is the record number of points achieved in a football league season

That’s it

[Crusader Royal]

If 'professional' means getting paid any amount to play, what would that leave 'semi-professional' to mean? Paid half the time? Paid in agricultural produce rather than money?

I think most people understand professional to mean that the game is the player's main occupation, enabling them to dedicate themselves full-time to training, unlike semi-pros, who might receive a fee for playing, but who have to balance training around their main occupation.

In the context of the 106 record it’s pretty much irrelevant !
There just isn’t a simple divide. Some players earn more from their football than anything else and have secondary jobs to boost income, often doing football coaching, running academies, personal training, physio work. Contracted players have guaranteed income, non contract players don’t so that could be where a line is. But whatever saying the 106 record is a ‘professional’ record doesn’t make much sense to me.

[Crusader Royal]

Fvcking hell

106 is the record number of points achieved in a football league season

That’s it

Thankyou !

[LUX]

Fvcking hell

106 is the record number of points achieved in a football league season

That’s it

I do regret raising Chesterfield, it’s all my fault.

[Snowflake Royal]

Surely the term ‘professional’ became redundant years ago.
Every team in the National Leagues and Southern league and equivalent and probably lower pay their players, at most clubs you have contracted players who get a guaranteed weekly wage whether they play or not and non contracted players who get paid when they play.

Well its not redundant as most would take "professional" to mean football is their main job, they train daily etc though may have a secondary form of income. I had a friend I used to work with who played for Hayes & Yeading amongst others, he was paid a weekly amount from them but it was very much a secondary income and they only trained twice a week - other teams as mentioned elsewhere at a similar level may well be professional but any record at a level where clubs are run differently should be discounted when looking at any footballing record.

Professional means you get paid for it !
Ronaldo’s ‘main job’ isn’t playing football, he earns way more from other activities. Lots of lower league players earn 100% of their income from football although not necessarily from a contract with a club, does that make them fully professional ?
I think you’ll struggle to argue the bit about ‘clubs being run differently’. That suggests any record set by Man City should be discounted because they are run differently to Luton !
I don’t think calling our record the ‘professional’ record makes any sense anyway as football doesn’t recognise ‘professional’ as a thing any more. It’s a Football League record, end of.

That's an overly simplistic take on what professional is.

I would argue it is doing it as a profession. Which is a much higher bar than just getting paid for doing it.

An IT guy who makes wooden chairs for a hobby on the weekend and sells some on Etsy isn't a professional carpenter, and no one reasonable would say they were.

[rabidbee]

I mean, if I can't debate obscure semantics on Hob Nob, I might come dangerously close to having to do work instead.

[The Royal Forester]

When I was a lot younger there were professional and Amateur leagues. The difference was in the latter, the players did not get paid and in the professional leagues they did.

My dictionary states the difference between the two is :- Amateur "a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis".

[Franchise FC]

When I was a lot younger there were professional and Amateur leagues. The difference was in the latter, the players did not get paid and in the professional leagues they did.

My dictionary states the difference between the two is :- Amateur "a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis".

Except that this ignores the well established position of semi-professional.
It is the TEAM that are likely described as semi-professional in circumstances where one or more players are paid as their main/only employment, but others may not be
As far as I understand it, the vast majority, if not all, of teams below League 2 are, at best, semi-professional.

[Crusader Royal]

When I was a lot younger there were professional and Amateur leagues. The difference was in the latter, the players did not get paid and in the professional leagues they did.

My dictionary states the difference between the two is :- Amateur "a person who engages in a pursuit, especially a sport, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis".

Except that this ignores the well established position of semi-professional.
It is the TEAM that are likely described as semi-professional in circumstances where one or more players are paid as their main/only employment, but others may not be
As far as I understand it, the vast majority, if not all, of teams below League 2 are, at best, semi-professional.

The vast majority of teams are amateur. There’s a small number of fully pro clubs and then there are varying degrees of professionalism in between. A semi pro is, by definition, a professional.
It’s all irrelevant in terms of 106.
Is there a thread reset button that gets us out of what is looking like a death spiral ?

[The Royal Forester]

When there were two types of leagues there wasn't any semi professional teams as no player was allowed to be paid in the amateur clubs/league. There were allowed to be paid for "expenses", which I think became such a minefield that Amateur was dropped by the FA and allowed all clubs to pay wages to players. Now, I suppose, there could be said to be Professional players, Amateur players Professional clubs. Amateur clubs, (those who just play for the fun of it, on a Sunday) and Semi professional clubs.
Was Reading FC a semi-professional club around the 1950's as I believe Bill Amour who was a policeman in Whitley Wood, was an amateur (unpaid) player at that time?

[Crusader Royal]

When there were two types of leagues there wasn't any semi professional teams as no player was allowed to be paid in the amateur clubs/league. There were allowed to be paid for "expenses", which I think became such a minefield that Amateur was dropped by the FA and allowed all clubs to pay wages to players. Now, I suppose, there could be said to be Professional players, Amateur players Professional clubs. Amateur clubs, (those who just play for the fun of it, on a Sunday) and Semi professional clubs.
Was Reading FC a semi-professional club around the 1950's as I believe Bill Amour who was a policeman in Whitley Wood, was an amateur (unpaid) player at that time?

There’s no reason a player today couldn’t play at the highest level and not be a ‘professional’. (Extremely) Unlikely, but it’s not that long ago that Eastern bloc countries put all their top players in the Army but there are top players in various sports for whom the sport is not their main career.

[Mr Angry]

When there were two types of leagues there wasn't any semi professional teams as no player was allowed to be paid in the amateur clubs/league. There were allowed to be paid for "expenses", which I think became such a minefield that Amateur was dropped by the FA and allowed all clubs to pay wages to players. Now, I suppose, there could be said to be Professional players, Amateur players Professional clubs. Amateur clubs, (those who just play for the fun of it, on a Sunday) and Semi professional clubs.
Was Reading FC a semi-professional club around the 1950's as I believe Bill Amour who was a policeman in Whitley Wood, was an amateur (unpaid) player at that time?

There’s no reason a player today couldn’t play at the highest level and not be a ‘professional’. (Extremely) Unlikely, but it’s not that long ago that Eastern bloc countries put all their top players in the Army but there are top players in various sports for whom the sport is not their main career.

But that was a load of rubbish; they were full time footballers who were seconded to the Army but apart from some basic Army stuff, like square bashing, they weren't ACTUALLY soldiers as such.

Its the same as how US College teams used to avoid salary caps for players; they gave a star player a job as a sports hall janitor, and paid him a $1,000,000 salary as a janitor..............

There is no way you can get a player playing for a Professional team in England for whom the football is a 2nd job - apart from anything else, the clubs insurance wouldn't allow that to happen.

[From Despair To Where?]

When there were two types of leagues there wasn't any semi professional teams as no player was allowed to be paid in the amateur clubs/league. There were allowed to be paid for "expenses", which I think became such a minefield that Amateur was dropped by the FA and allowed all clubs to pay wages to players. Now, I suppose, there could be said to be Professional players, Amateur players Professional clubs. Amateur clubs, (those who just play for the fun of it, on a Sunday) and Semi professional clubs.
Was Reading FC a semi-professional club around the 1950's as I believe Bill Amour who was a policeman in Whitley Wood, was an amateur (unpaid) player at that time?

There’s no reason a player today couldn’t play at the highest level and not be a ‘professional’. (Extremely) Unlikely, but it’s not that long ago that Eastern bloc countries put all their top players in the Army but there are top players in various sports for whom the sport is not their main career.

Eastern European teams used to put their players in the army but they weren't soldiers, they trained and we're paid full time as footballers. It was done to maintain the dominance of "army" teams under communism. CSKA means Central Army Sports Club and you had to be in the army to be a member. They just "enlisted" the best players.

[Crusader Royal]

When there were two types of leagues there wasn't any semi professional teams as no player was allowed to be paid in the amateur clubs/league. There were allowed to be paid for "expenses", which I think became such a minefield that Amateur was dropped by the FA and allowed all clubs to pay wages to players. Now, I suppose, there could be said to be Professional players, Amateur players Professional clubs. Amateur clubs, (those who just play for the fun of it, on a Sunday) and Semi professional clubs.
Was Reading FC a semi-professional club around the 1950's as I believe Bill Amour who was a policeman in Whitley Wood, was an amateur (unpaid) player at that time?

There’s no reason a player today couldn’t play at the highest level and not be a ‘professional’. (Extremely) Unlikely, but it’s not that long ago that Eastern bloc countries put all their top players in the Army but there are top players in various sports for whom the sport is not their main career.

But that was a load of rubbish; they were full time footballers who were seconded to the Army but apart from some basic Army stuff, like square bashing, they weren't ACTUALLY soldiers as such.

Its the same as how US College teams used to avoid salary caps for players; they gave a star player a job as a sports hall janitor, and paid him a $1,000,000 salary as a janitor..............

There is no way you can get a player playing for a Professional team in England for whom the football is a 2nd job - apart from anything else, the clubs insurance wouldn't allow that to happen.

Don’t understand why insurance should be an issue. Players have other interests outside football. They are even encouraged to do so because of the precarious nature of the job. A Div 2 player could comfortably have a second career if it was something flexible and not in conflict with football (so probably not being a fireman or a night club bouncer).

[Mr Angry]

There is a world of difference between a player being encouraged to consider a new career post-retirement, and someone who has a full time job and plays professional football as their 2nd job.

Also, if you look at your employment contract there is almost certainly a clause in it preventing you from having any other employment; no reason a footballer will be any different.

As for Insurance, their are certainly clauses in players contracts that prevent them - for example - playing other specific sports due to the insurance on them being null and void if they get injured whilst doing something proscribed (which is why so many players are golfers), and I would imagine there are likely to be similar clauses preventing players from having full time outside employment.

Back in the day, I remember that Martin Peters owned a couple of Insurance Brokers in (iirc) Essex, but whilst he was playing he wasn't allowed to work at his own Companies; it was only when he retired that he went full time into the industry.