Hob Nob Anyone?

Hendo wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote:

Jagermesiter1871 wrote:I guess it somewhat depends on his wages, but has Oshea really been a disappointment? He's impressed me on the occasions he's been called upon, and has looked fairly class.

He's played 7 games. Got injured in the warm up twice. Got himself sent off. Has no pace. Has had no measurable positive impact on anyone else.

He's been shit.

Tbf, with the sending off he stopped a pretty much certain goal, not too bothered by that.

Also, how are you expecting to measure positive impact, exactly?

Has the defence looked any less clueless or more quality than last year? No.

No sign of positive influence.
Which of course isn't the same as saying he's definitely had no positive influence or had a negative one. Just there's no evidence of a positive one.

From Despair To Where? wrote:

Hendo wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote: He's played 7 games. Got injured in the warm up twice. Got himself sent off. Has no pace. Has had no measurable positive impact on anyone else.

He's been shit.

Tbf, with the sending off he stopped a pretty much certain goal, not too bothered by that.

Also, how are you expecting to measure positive impact, exactly?

Well, in Ian's case, you have a preconceived notion that he will have no positive impact and you stick to it.

O'Shea was a baffling signing but he's been far from the worst of the summer.


Anyway, it's been a cautiously positive transfer window. We've not lost anyone we really couldn't do without, the squad's leaner, the players coming in, on paper, are better than the players who have left and we've apparently mugged Cardiff for £4m.

FYI the logical position is that the onus is on demonstrating a positive influence , not just asserting it and saying prove otherwise. Null result until evidence to the contrary.

Also, I wouldn't give O'Shea much credit for his sending off. It was only necessary because he was so slow, massively stretching it to say it would have been a certain goal.
Also it was in the 83rd minute against Hull. The worst performance Ive seen from anyone all season (including us) and we were winning 3-0. So what if they score?

The clean sheets thing is noticeable. But hardly clearly causative.

WoodleyRoyal wrote:jlow-

The future of goalkeeper Vito Mannone remains unclear, with the Italian well away from Gomes' first-team plans. The former Sunderland shotstopper has been training with the U23s and was told to find another club in the January window.

A move away never materialised, but it is understood his future will be resolved in the coming days

Mutual termination of contract?

Even if this happens he won't be able to join anyone till the summer will he? Unless he goes to China maybe, looks like their transfer window doesn't close till end of Feb.

Snowflake Royal wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:

Hendo wrote:
Tbf, with the sending off he stopped a pretty much certain goal, not too bothered by that.

Also, how are you expecting to measure positive impact, exactly?

Well, in Ian's case, you have a preconceived notion that he will have no positive impact and you stick to it.

O'Shea was a baffling signing but he's been far from the worst of the summer.


Anyway, it's been a cautiously positive transfer window. We've not lost anyone we really couldn't do without, the squad's leaner, the players coming in, on paper, are better than the players who have left and we've apparently mugged Cardiff for £4m.

FYI the logical position is that the onus is on demonstrating a positive influence , not just asserting it and saying prove otherwise. Null result until evidence to the contrary.

Also, I wouldn't give O'Shea much credit for his sending off. It was only necessary because he was so slow, massively stretching it to say it would have been a certain goal.
Also it was in the 83rd minute against Hull. The worst performance Ive seen from anyone all season (including us) and we were winning 3-0. So what if they score?

The clean sheets thing is noticeable. But hardly clearly causative.

Well, he was brought in as cover, he's acted as cover and results have been better than average when he has played.

But of course, you already decided that day that we signed him that he was going to be shit so all debate is futile.

Snowflake Royal wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:

Hendo wrote:
Tbf, with the sending off he stopped a pretty much certain goal, not too bothered by that.

Also, how are you expecting to measure positive impact, exactly?

Well, in Ian's case, you have a preconceived notion that he will have no positive impact and you stick to it.

O'Shea was a baffling signing but he's been far from the worst of the summer.


Anyway, it's been a cautiously positive transfer window. We've not lost anyone we really couldn't do without, the squad's leaner, the players coming in, on paper, are better than the players who have left and we've apparently mugged Cardiff for £4m.

FYI the logical position is that the onus is on demonstrating a positive influence , not just asserting it and saying prove otherwise. Null result until evidence to the contrary.

Also, I wouldn't give O'Shea much credit for his sending off. It was only necessary because he was so slow, massively stretching it to say it would have been a certain goal.
Also it was in the 83rd minute against Hull. The worst performance Ive seen from anyone all season (including us) and we were winning 3-0. So what if they score?

The clean sheets thing is noticeable. But hardly clearly causative.

Dressing up an unsustainable arguement in pseudo intellectual language makes it less likely to be accepted rather than more ! I would ask how on earth you expect anyone to measure a positive influence any way. It is entirely possible that O’Shea has been extremely positive but that has been countered by the extreme negativity of our captain and star player. That’s not O’Shea’s fault !
I don’t think anyone has suggested O’Shea deserves ‘credit’ for his sending off but compared to the red cards earned by Bacuna and Blackett it was pretty innocuous (it was a second yellow for a start which makes it one step down from a straight red). He was covering a missing player, his pace or lack of it is almost entirely beside the point.
There seems to be a very sensible , majority view that O’Shea has been kind of ok without being good and an outlying extremist view. The majority has it....

Pepe the Horseman wrote:

WoodleyRoyal wrote:jlow-

The future of goalkeeper Vito Mannone remains unclear, with the Italian well away from Gomes' first-team plans. The former Sunderland shotstopper has been training with the U23s and was told to find another club in the January window.

A move away never materialised, but it is understood his future will be resolved in the coming days

Mutual termination of contract?

Even if this happens he won't be able to join anyone till the summer will he? Unless he goes to China maybe, looks like their transfer window doesn't close till end of Feb.

If he becomes a Free agent then he can join any club outside of either Transfer Window.

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:

Pepe the Horseman wrote:

WoodleyRoyal wrote:jlow-

The future of goalkeeper Vito Mannone remains unclear, with the Italian well away from Gomes' first-team plans. The former Sunderland shotstopper has been training with the U23s and was told to find another club in the January window.

A move away never materialised, but it is understood his future will be resolved in the coming days

Mutual termination of contract?

Even if this happens he won't be able to join anyone till the summer will he? Unless he goes to China maybe, looks like their transfer window doesn't close till end of Feb.

If he becomes a Free agent then he can join any club outside of either Transfer Window.

No he can’t. Windows apply to contract cancellation. You have to be a free agent at the point the window closes, they would have needed to cancel his contract before 11pm last night.
He can theoretically join another club but they can’t register him to play until the next window opens.

Nameless wrote:

Tilehurstsouthbank wrote:

Pepe the Horseman wrote: Even if this happens he won't be able to join anyone till the summer will he? Unless he goes to China maybe, looks like their transfer window doesn't close till end of Feb.

If he becomes a Free agent then he can join any club outside of either Transfer Window.

No he can’t. Windows apply to contract cancellation. You have to be a free agent at the point the window closes, they would have needed to cancel his contract before 11pm last night.
He can theoretically join another club but they can’t register him to play until the next window opens.

I stand corrected.

The main issue with O Shea is the same as Baldock

Only have so much money and space in the squad and both have proved completely unreliable on their fitness and both have been average when they have played. O Shea hasn't been atrocious when he has actually got on the pitch, but has been injured for half the season and injured twice in warm ups when on the bench.

With O Shea being very much a short term signing, he is of little use if he isn't fit enough to even be on the pitch

Hound wrote:The main issue with O Shea is the same as Baldock

Only have so much money and space in the squad and both have proved completely unreliable on their fitness and both have been average when they have played. O Shea hasn't been atrocious when he has actually got on the pitch, but has been injured for half the season and injured twice in warm ups when on the bench.

With O Shea being very much a short term signing, he is of little use if he isn't fit enough to even be on the pitch

agree with most of that.
To be honest I never expected him to play more than a handful of games anyway. He was clearly not brought in to be a starter and as I understood it he was transitioning to be part of the coaching staff this year (this May have been scuppered by the managerial change)

Snowflake Royal wrote:There is a lot that's gone wrong with last Summers window, but for the most part the idea is good.

Pretty sure most any club signing any player thinks it's a good idea.

Do you think this Jan window was a good idea? Are you less sure of that because you know less about the players that came in? That wouldn't necessarily mean, though, that they weren't a 'good idea'. And it will presumably mean that you'll be all the more ecstatic if they do well.


(Edit: /ekˈstadik,ikˈstadik/
Synonyms, Adjective:
Feeling or expressing overwhelming happiness or joyful excitement.
"ecstatic fans filled the stadium"
Involving an experience of mystic self-transcendence
One that is subject to ecstasies, entranced, rhapsodical
Noun:
A person subject to mystical experiences
Antonyms, Adjective:
Depressed
)

Nameless wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote:

From Despair To Where? wrote:
Well, in Ian's case, you have a preconceived notion that he will have no positive impact and you stick to it.

O'Shea was a baffling signing but he's been far from the worst of the summer.


Anyway, it's been a cautiously positive transfer window. We've not lost anyone we really couldn't do without, the squad's leaner, the players coming in, on paper, are better than the players who have left and we've apparently mugged Cardiff for £4m.

FYI the logical position is that the onus is on demonstrating a positive influence , not just asserting it and saying prove otherwise. Null result until evidence to the contrary.

Also, I wouldn't give O'Shea much credit for his sending off. It was only necessary because he was so slow, massively stretching it to say it would have been a certain goal.
Also it was in the 83rd minute against Hull. The worst performance Ive seen from anyone all season (including us) and we were winning 3-0. So what if they score?

The clean sheets thing is noticeable. But hardly clearly causative.

Dressing up an unsustainable arguement in pseudo intellectual language makes it less likely to be accepted rather than more ! I would ask how on earth you expect anyone to measure a positive influence any way. It is entirely possible that O’Shea has been extremely positive but that has been countered by the extreme negativity of our captain and star player. That’s not O’Shea’s fault !
I don’t think anyone has suggested O’Shea deserves ‘credit’ for his sending off but compared to the red cards earned by Bacuna and Blackett it was pretty innocuous (it was a second yellow for a start which makes it one step down from a straight red). He was covering a missing player, his pace or lack of it is almost entirely beside the point.
There seems to be a very sensible , majority view that O’Shea has been kind of ok without being good and an outlying extremist view. The majority has it....

I've already said how I'd measure it.

Funny how you decide the majority just agrees with you.

Snowflake Royal wrote:

Nameless wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote: FYI the logical position is that the onus is on demonstrating a positive influence , not just asserting it and saying prove otherwise. Null result until evidence to the contrary.

Also, I wouldn't give O'Shea much credit for his sending off. It was only necessary because he was so slow, massively stretching it to say it would have been a certain goal.
Also it was in the 83rd minute against Hull. The worst performance Ive seen from anyone all season (including us) and we were winning 3-0. So what if they score?

The clean sheets thing is noticeable. But hardly clearly causative.

Dressing up an unsustainable arguement in pseudo intellectual language makes it less likely to be accepted rather than more ! I would ask how on earth you expect anyone to measure a positive influence any way. It is entirely possible that O’Shea has been extremely positive but that has been countered by the extreme negativity of our captain and star player. That’s not O’Shea’s fault !
I don’t think anyone has suggested O’Shea deserves ‘credit’ for his sending off but compared to the red cards earned by Bacuna and Blackett it was pretty innocuous (it was a second yellow for a start which makes it one step down from a straight red). He was covering a missing player, his pace or lack of it is almost entirely beside the point.
There seems to be a very sensible , majority view that O’Shea has been kind of ok without being good and an outlying extremist view. The majority has it....

I've already said how I'd measure it.

Funny how you decide the majority just agrees with you.

I tend to use a more conventional measure of majority - there’s you saying he’s shit and everyone else disagreeing (with Hendo flip flopping depending on who posted last !)

Your idea that you can ‘measure’ positive influence of an individual with a nebulous concept of whether a defence (of which O’Shea has not usually been part of) looks less clueless than it did previously doesn’t really hold water. Specially if you refuse to accept the fact that the defensive record is actually better when O’Shea has played ....

Nameless wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote:

Nameless wrote:
Dressing up an unsustainable arguement in pseudo intellectual language makes it less likely to be accepted rather than more ! I would ask how on earth you expect anyone to measure a positive influence any way. It is entirely possible that O’Shea has been extremely positive but that has been countered by the extreme negativity of our captain and star player. That’s not O’Shea’s fault !
I don’t think anyone has suggested O’Shea deserves ‘credit’ for his sending off but compared to the red cards earned by Bacuna and Blackett it was pretty innocuous (it was a second yellow for a start which makes it one step down from a straight red). He was covering a missing player, his pace or lack of it is almost entirely beside the point.
There seems to be a very sensible , majority view that O’Shea has been kind of ok without being good and an outlying extremist view. The majority has it....

I've already said how I'd measure it.

Funny how you decide the majority just agrees with you.

I tend to use a more conventional measure of majority - there’s you saying he’s shit and everyone else disagreeing (with Hendo flip flopping depending on who posted last !)

Your idea that you can ‘measure’ positive influence of an individual with a nebulous concept of whether a defence (of which O’Shea has not usually been part of) looks less clueless than it did previously doesn’t really hold water. Specially if you refuse to accept the fact that the defensive record is actually better when O’Shea has played ....

I suggest you read more widely. It's certainly not just me. In fact it's far from my perception that the majority agree with you he's been ok.

I can hardly be the one faulted that the claim he's a positive influence is nebulous and unsupported. A claim entirely separate to performance when he plays btw. And based solely on his having played for a long time and in a successful Utd side plus wishful thinking (it seems to me)

Show me some evidence of his positive influence and I'll give it consideration. Asserting with nothing ain't good enough for me.

Denver Royal wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote:There is a lot that's gone wrong with last Summers window, but for the most part the idea is good.

Pretty sure most any club signing any player thinks it's a good idea.

Do you think this Jan window was a good idea? Are you less sure of that because you know less about the players that came in? That wouldn't necessarily mean, though, that they weren't a 'good idea'. And it will presumably mean that you'll be all the more ecstatic if they do well.


(Edit: /ekˈstadik,ikˈstadik/
Synonyms, Adjective:
Feeling or expressing overwhelming happiness or joyful excitement.
"ecstatic fans filled the stadium"
Involving an experience of mystic self-transcendence
One that is subject to ecstasies, entranced, rhapsodical
Noun:
A person subject to mystical experiences
Antonyms, Adjective:
Depressed
)

Loanees - good idea. As I have said
Shift out players - good idea. As I have said.
Are the players the right ones? Questionable... three midfielders and a 4th goalkeeper? Total of six loanees. Seems a trifle wasteful.
I'd prefer some of the outs were different, but it's an imperfect world.

Of course I'll be delighted with any player I think does well. Doesn't mean my idea of does well will match yours of course.

You seem to misunderstand the difference between the club obviously thinking any player they are willing to sign is at least good enough, with the purpose for signing that player being a good idea for the club to pursue

Snowflake Royal wrote:Of course I'll be delighted with any player I think does well. Doesn't mean my idea of does well will match yours of course.

Of course. If for no other reason, that you don't actually watch many games. So yes, believe me, for that reason (and for others), I'm already bracing myself for it.

Denver Royal wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote:Of course I'll be delighted with any player I think does well. Doesn't mean my idea of does well will match yours of course.

Of course. If for no other reason, that you don't actually watch many games. So yes, believe me, I'm already bracing myself for it.

Oh yes, the I don't watch games so you're a better supporter myth.

How many games do you go to in a season Ian? To be fair anyone who says you are not a true Reading supporter is a bit of an idiot.

Snowflake Royal wrote:

Denver Royal wrote:

Snowflake Royal wrote:Of course I'll be delighted with any player I think does well. Doesn't mean my idea of does well will match yours of course.

Of course. If for no other reason, that you don't actually watch many games. So yes, believe me, I'm already bracing myself for it.

Oh yes, the I don't watch games so you're a better supporter myth.

Huh? I never questioned your support. Its quite possible you see some games I don't. I didn't see the Man Yoo game, for example. Us not watching some of the same games could potentially be one of the reasons of us seeing some players differently (which you had raised). And yes, there may be other reasons, too.

Zip wrote:How many games do you go to in a season Ian? To be fair anyone who says you are not a true Reading supporter is a bit of an idiot.

Live matches... probably average about 12 a season since 95? During uni and our PL years I probably only managed 2-5 a season which brings it down a fair bit - plus Stam's first season when I was on boycott (LOLZ at my misfortune). But I did manage to see quite a few PL games on TV, or via Reading Player - there were a few seasons where you could watch the full 90 after the fact for every game I probably saw 30 - 35 a season between live and recorded for those two to three seasons.

Since we last got relegated and I've had a season ticket (barring Stam's first season) - probably 16/17/18 ish live, plus some TV and stream.

This season, the heart's not in it, especially since Clement went.. so I'm at about 5-6 live plus another 4-5ish streamed.

Don't claim to see every game or even most. But plenty enough. The travel and cost is just a killer. Getting to a game is about a 10 hour day, and £50-£60 on top of the ticket cost. Doing that just to watch use be shit and lose doesn't have a high appeal.
Plus work's a bitch for the start of the season, and I've got to use leave to get to mid-week games because I can't guarantee I'll be able to catch the last train back, and the last train takes aaaaaaages compared to the normal ones.