MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

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Hound
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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Hound » 06 Nov 2017 11:05

I don't agree nothing changed, but I agree it was fairly subtle.

The wingers were undoubtedly kept further upfield in the last few games, Barrow started instead of Beerens (more pace, more dynamism), and maybe more importantly, Swift and Bacuna have been fit.

I do however think the since Leeds we have played a little more direct, using the pace on the flanks, and looking to break at speed. I'm happy to take Boro at home as the outlier in the last 5 games, and just think we were beaten by the better team at Sheffield, and we were hamstrung by having no striker fit.

We've still got a very strong record of winning the game if we score the first goal, and scoring early against both Forest and Derby were the key. Maybe if we'd managed to keep up the fast start against Boro and sneaked a goal, we'd have been rewarded with a far better performance.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 06 Nov 2017 11:44

bcubed
Sutekh
bobby1413
Yes gr8 m8. I am not known for my positivity, but I do tend to back the manager more than others, especially those with a knee jerk reaction of sacking him so early on.

Not counting my chickens, but win/lose/draw I still maintain it's early days and we're building over the next 1-3 seasons.



I am fcking furious about this. Raging.

As I said on a recent thread, I never single a player out for negative performances, but watching him enrages me and seeing him once again get match time is a fcking joke. Anyone is better than this waste of space.

If he plays again for Reading in the first team then I will cut up my season ticket and send it back to the club demanding a refund*

(* I won't - but I will be jolly upset)


Blackett is a talented young player but for me he is a left sided central defender and should never be near a left back role. At the moment he is suffering badly from a loss of form which is really highlighting his shortcomings and it won't help him by getting on his back especially as in several games he's not been the only culprit making iffy decisions on the pitch.


Saved me saying it

Exactly this. Most observers would agree he should not play left back, but play him in a back three and he looks classy. To single him out as a useless footballer in this way is bizarre


+1

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Tilehurstsouthbank » 06 Nov 2017 13:39

Hound I don't agree nothing changed, but I agree it was fairly subtle.

The wingers were undoubtedly kept further upfield in the last few games, Barrow started instead of Beerens (more pace, more dynamism), and maybe more importantly, Swift and Bacuna have been fit.

I do however think the since Leeds we have played a little more direct, using the pace on the flanks, and looking to break at speed. I'm happy to take Boro at home as the outlier in the last 5 games, and just think we were beaten by the better team at Sheffield, and we were hamstrung by having no striker fit.

We've still got a very strong record of winning the game if we score the first goal, and scoring early against both Forest and Derby were the key. Maybe if we'd managed to keep up the fast start against Boro and sneaked a goal, we'd have been rewarded with a far better performance.


Nailed it.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Snowflake Royal » 06 Nov 2017 16:53

Nameless Odd that people think fans had anything to do with Stam changing anything when essentially nothing has changed.
We've not played badly this season, just not well enough and not effectively enough (semantics maybe, but certainly in home games no one has really looked better than us and almost every defeat has been narrow).
We've not done anything different over the last few games, just what we do has suddenly worked and the potential that has always been there has come to the fore.
Of course Stam should shoulder some blame for not finding a way to make it click earlier but we are still playing his way. the performances over the last few games have been what should have happened earlier, the new signings were clearly intended to build on what we had in place last season by adding more pace and flair (something Stam said a long while ago he wanted to do).
So it's daft to think the rumbles of dissent from those wanting a radical change have made a difference, if anything you need to admire Stam for holding on to his belief that what he was trying to do would come good. he didn't change to route one, we still play it out from the back, we just do it better than we have done.
Whatever the reasons it's good to see the foundations that had been laid looking like they may produce results. IF we play the way we have over the last few games we might deliver what was the minimum expectation at the start of the season which was another top 6 finish. Despite our serious under performance we are still only a whisker behind the pack with significant strength to add if we can sort the injury situation. Get the right player in in January and we can really kick on, over to you Mr Teverenden....

This. This. This.

Calls for Stam's head in October or November were always massively premature, particularly given some of the difficult circumatances we had to deal with.

We established a substantial pattern of under performance across a legitimately concerning numer of games (10-12) that couldn't just be attributed to a blip.

The only appropriate response is to give him a similar period to resolve the issues. If that's not happening then only then so you consider a sacking unless something spectacularly bad is going on.

That means giving him at least 20 games. Or until mid-December

There's nothing wrong with complaining about the deficiencies of the team and performance earlier. But suggesting a manager change is short-sighted, stupid and demonstrates a sense of over-entitlement.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by genome » 07 Nov 2017 10:18

I'm not sure what you mean by over-entitlement (fans want to see their team play well and win...) but I still think you need to be careful not to be too revisionist. I know you made a point about waiting until at least December, fair play, but to call other fans stupid is a little arrogant. Before Tuesday, our form was sacking form, if you compared the results over 10 games prior to the sacking of our last few managers.

Not only were results poor, but for a lot of fans the football was awful, the tactics ineffective and team selection confusing - the responsibility of the manager. I think the calls before the Forest game were very understandable.

We've had two wins. They were very good wins, and long may it continue.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by leon » 07 Nov 2017 11:21

genome I'm not sure what you mean by over-entitlement (fans want to see their team play well and win...) but I still think you need to be careful not to be too revisionist. I know you made a point about waiting until at least December, fair play, but to call other fans stupid is a little arrogant. Before Tuesday, our form was sacking form, if you compared the results over 10 games prior to the sacking of our last few managers.

Not only were results poor, but for a lot of fans the football was awful, the tactics ineffective and team selection confusing - the responsibility of the manager. I think the calls before the Forest game were very understandable.

We've had two wins. They were very good wins, and long may it continue.


You've read Ian's posts before, right?

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Snowflake Royal » 07 Nov 2017 18:15

genome I'm not sure what you mean by over-entitlement (fans want to see their team play well and win...) but I still think you need to be careful not to be too revisionist. I know you made a point about waiting until at least December, fair play, but to call other fans stupid is a little arrogant. Before Tuesday, our form was sacking form, if you compared the results over 10 games prior to the sacking of our last few managers.

Not only were results poor, but for a lot of fans the football was awful, the tactics ineffective and team selection confusing - the responsibility of the manager. I think the calls before the Forest game were very understandable.

We've had two wins. They were very good wins, and long may it continue.

By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way. That Reading should be at the top of the league and anything else is unacceptable. I don't see any other way to describe some of the reactions to poor results or runs that we have on here.

Of the last few managers we've sacked (Rdogers, McDermott, Adkins, Clarke, McDermott), results were poor over far longer than 10 games, with the exception of Clarke, where they'd previously been poor for a lot longer than 10 games, and he talked himself into the sack. Some other complications with McDermott, Adkins and McDermott's sacking, but the principle of more than 10 games applies.

Unless it's spectacularly poor (like no wins, mostly losses poor), anything under about 20 games is simply too soon. particularly for a manager who has an excellent prior record.

Nothing wrong with calling behaviour stupid, if you think it's stupid and can make a case for why.

I know we've had two very good wins. This isn't really relevant. The point is you don't sack someone for an extended run of poor form. You sack them for an extended run of poor form that they fail to turn around when given a chance. If Stam picks up bugger all points between now and Cardiff / Ipswich, it'll be fully appropriate to start calling for his head. Until then, it's give him a chance to fix things.

If some of the reactionaries on here who were calling for Stam to go only a short while ago followed that outlook and were in charge, Pardew would have gone without getting us promoted, same with Coppell. Both had extended runs of poor form. They dealt with it. We benefited.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Oilroyal » 07 Nov 2017 20:22

Snowflake Royal
genome I'm not sure what you mean by over-entitlement (fans want to see their team play well and win...) but I still think you need to be careful not to be too revisionist. I know you made a point about waiting until at least December, fair play, but to call other fans stupid is a little arrogant. Before Tuesday, our form was sacking form, if you compared the results over 10 games prior to the sacking of our last few managers.

Not only were results poor, but for a lot of fans the football was awful, the tactics ineffective and team selection confusing - the responsibility of the manager. I think the calls before the Forest game were very understandable.

We've had two wins. They were very good wins, and long may it continue.

By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way. That Reading should be at the top of the league and anything else is unacceptable. I don't see any other way to describe some of the reactions to poor results or runs that we have on here.

Of the last few managers we've sacked (Rdogers, McDermott, Adkins, Clarke, McDermott), results were poor over far longer than 10 games, with the exception of Clarke, where they'd previously been poor for a lot longer than 10 games, and he talked himself into the sack. Some other complications with McDermott, Adkins and McDermott's sacking, but the principle of more than 10 games applies.

Unless it's spectacularly poor (like no wins, mostly losses poor), anything under about 20 games is simply too soon. particularly for a manager who has an excellent prior record.

Nothing wrong with calling behaviour stupid, if you think it's stupid and can make a case for why.

I know we've had two very good wins. This isn't really relevant. The point is you don't sack someone for an extended run of poor form. You sack them for an extended run of poor form that they fail to turn around when given a chance. If Stam picks up bugger all points between now and Cardiff / Ipswich, it'll be fully appropriate to start calling for his head. Until then, it's give him a chance to fix things.

If some of the reactionaries on here who were calling for Stam to go only a short while ago followed that outlook and were in charge, Pardew would have gone without getting us promoted, same with Coppell. Both had extended runs of poor form. They dealt with it. We benefited.


A lot of fans on here have years and years of supporting this club and the various managers and their teams. Most are realistic that a top 6 is not our given right. But also, most fans expect a Reading team to be able to compete for 90 minutes, and not cave in after going a goal down, and also play a bloody football forward. We have some great players and a good team now that Jaap is setting us up to play to the players own strengths, but 20th place at the time...Really? It's no wonder change was being called for. Thankfully the changes came in time and thankfully the entertainment value is back with the ball going forward.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by genome » 07 Nov 2017 22:50

Snowflake Royal By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way. That Reading should be at the top of the league and anything else is unacceptable. I don't see any other way to describe some of the reactions to poor results or runs that we have on here.


I doubt Stam's detractors think that. The frustration is mainly with the standard of football and odd tactics/team selection. I've said myself, I'm less concerned with results, more concerned with performances, and I get the vibe that many other fans feel the same way. I'd say 9 times out of 10, if you can tell that the right ideas are there, the fans will be much more understanding. Until Forest, the ideas weren't there and we showed no progression from a great season previous. If any fan thinks we should be top of the league, they're definitely in a minority.

You make perfectly valid points in your post and I agree with some of them, but I maintain that calling people stupid with the benefit of hindsight shows arrogance. The standard of football can often increase or decrease the amount of time a manager has. In reality, the point (ie after x number of games) where you should sack someone is completely arbitrary, and dependent on different factors that are often just matters of opinion.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Nov 2017 11:12

genome
Snowflake Royal By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way. That Reading should be at the top of the league and anything else is unacceptable. I don't see any other way to describe some of the reactions to poor results or runs that we have on here.


I doubt Stam's detractors think that. The frustration is mainly with the standard of football and odd tactics/team selection. I've said myself, I'm less concerned with results, more concerned with performances, and I get the vibe that many other fans feel the same way. I'd say 9 times out of 10, if you can tell that the right ideas are there, the fans will be much more understanding. Until Forest, the ideas weren't there and we showed no progression from a great season previous. If any fan thinks we should be top of the league, they're definitely in a minority.

You make perfectly valid points in your post and I agree with some of them, but I maintain that calling people stupid with the benefit of hindsight shows arrogance. The standard of football can often increase or decrease the amount of time a manager has. In reality, the point (ie after x number of games) where you should sack someone is completely arbitrary, and dependent on different factors that are often just matters of opinion.

We'll agree to disagree. I think there's a distinction between calling someone stupid, and suggeting saying / doing something is stupid.

And its got nothing to do with hindsight btw. I said it at the time and it would be true if we hadn't just won three in five. Too soon is too soon whether we come good or he eventually gets the old heave ho anyway.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by bcubed » 08 Nov 2017 13:04

genome
Snowflake Royal By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way. That Reading should be at the top of the league and anything else is unacceptable. I don't see any other way to describe some of the reactions to poor results or runs that we have on here.


I doubt Stam's detractors think that. The frustration is mainly with the standard of football and odd tactics/team selection. I've said myself, I'm less concerned with results, more concerned with performances, and I get the vibe that many other fans feel the same way. I'd say 9 times out of 10, if you can tell that the right ideas are there, the fans will be much more understanding. Until Forest, the ideas weren't there and we showed no progression from a great season previous. If any fan thinks we should be top of the league, they're definitely in a minority.

You make perfectly valid points in your post and I agree with some of them, but I maintain that calling people stupid with the benefit of hindsight shows arrogance. The standard of football can often increase or decrease the amount of time a manager has. In reality, the point (ie after x number of games) where you should sack someone is completely arbitrary, and dependent on different factors that are often just matters of opinion.


exactly this

I didn't make the Forest game but I did go to Derby.
The football was absolutely superb. Not been as excited for years.
I couldn't really say that about any game this season and hardly any last year

Something changed, maybe Bacuna, who was excellent, but whatever it was not the same dreary football we've seen up until the Forest game. Slow paced dreary and ultimately losing football is not going to endear the manager to anyone

Two more losses and I believe he would have gone and that most would have thought it correct

Play like this (Forest and Derby games) and fans will support him
Long may it continue

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by Snowflake Royal » 08 Nov 2017 15:45

That's the difference between playing the system effectively (last year) playing it badly (earlier this season) and playing it well (Forest / Derby). It's what Stam's said he's wanted all along. It's why he bought Barrow, Aluko and Bacuna for example.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by RichTea94 » 08 Nov 2017 17:57

Snowflake Royal It's why he bought Barrow, Aluko and Bacuna for example.


I jumped off my sofa when Aluko scored. That's exactly the kind of goal you expect from him, hopefully that's him up and running.


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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by tidus_mi2 » 08 Nov 2017 18:25

RichTea94
Snowflake Royal It's why he bought Barrow, Aluko and Bacuna for example.


I jumped off my sofa when Aluko scored. That's exactly the kind of goal you expect from him, hopefully that's him up and running.

The interplay for that goal was oxf*rd outstanding.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by 72 bus » 08 Nov 2017 19:19

Snowflake Royal By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way.


Says the bloke who got his Season ticket refunded because McDermott got sacked

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by LWJ » 10 Nov 2017 10:51

72 bus
Snowflake Royal By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way.


Says the bloke who got his Season ticket refunded because McDermott got sacked

:lol:

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by double d » 10 Nov 2017 11:06

LWJ
72 bus
Snowflake Royal By over-entitlement, I mean fans expecting to only have good times and things to go their way.


Says the bloke who got his Season ticket refunded because McDermott got sacked

:lol:


Did that happen?

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by LWJ » 10 Nov 2017 11:07

double d
Did that happen?

Yes - Snowflake is Ian Royal, unsure of which username he threw the tantrum under but there will be a thread on club policies from before the start of last season.

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by double d » 10 Nov 2017 11:12

LWJ
double d
Did that happen?

Yes - Snowflake is Ian Royal, unsure of which username he threw the tantrum under but there will be a thread on club policies from before the start of last season.


Lord i need to find this thread and read it. More sadder then i thought!

Ian ROFLoyaLOL

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Re: MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

by John Smith » 10 Nov 2017 16:42

double d
LWJ
double d
Did that happen?

Yes - Snowflake is Ian Royal, unsure of which username he threw the tantrum under but there will be a thread on club policies from before the start of last season.


Lord i need to find this thread and read it. More sadder then i thought!

Ian ROFLoyaLOL

Hahahaha

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