Harte is Rubbish, not good enough for the Championship

[Snowball]

You might like this one from last season's final Actim

98th 404 Points 0 Goals Marcus Williams, Defender, Scunthorpe

[Wimb]

Then just say Long doesn't feature in the top 100, simple enough isn't it?

It's hardly a joke when you're the only one laughing

If anything your rationale that 'goals don't have a massive effect on final positions' would almost certainly count against your pro-Shane Long stance, as you argue he contributes so much else.

However It once again comes down to the fact that your scattergunning of arguments and statistics make it actually impossible to follow an argument about what you are trying to disprove or prove.

[Wycombe Royal]

IN Actim Index 2009-2010

24th 543 Points - 10 + 2 = 12 Goals Jimmy Kebe Midfielder
36th 501 Points - 16 + 4 = 20 Goals Gylfi Siggurdson Midfielder
57th 470 Points - 01 + 0 = 01 Goals Ryan Bertrand Defender
61st 465 Points - 03 + 0 = 03 Goals Jobi McAnuff Midfielder



NOT in Actim Index 2009-2010

10 + 02 = 12 Goals - Striker Simon Church
06 + 03 = 09 Goals - Striker Shane Long
09 + 00 = 09 Goals - Striker Gregor Rasiak
04 + 00 = 00 Goals - Defender Alex Pearce

So where is the evidence that goals have a massive effect on final positions?

Why is McAnuff below Bertrand?
Why is Gylfi below Kebe
Why is defender Alex Pearce with 4 goals not in the table when 1 goal Bertrand is 57th?

But this comes back to appearances again and the results being skewed in many cases in favour of the players who play the most. Church, Long, Rasiak and Pearce did not play enough matches to feature whereas in an average points based system they would have faired better.

Also in the case of Pearce, last time I checked 4+0=4.

So on one hand you are saying it is right that it favours those who play the most and now you are ignoring that in an attempt to show that it doesn't favour goal scorers the most.

You really are special, do you know that?

Also it is noce to see that despite your numerous postings on various topics you are ignoring me on the "Best Defence" topic. I'm guessing it is because you know you are wrong, you have no comeback and you hope it wil be forgotten. However I'll accept an apology on this topic.

[Wimb]

Good luck waiting for that WR

[Snowball]

3,005 Total 2,660 League Minutes Kebe
3,209 Total 2,609 League Minutes Gylfi


So Kebe Finished 12 Places above Gylfi having played a whole 59 minutes more but scoring 6 less league goals

[Snowball]

You really are special, do you know that?

Yes I do. Someone correctly titled me today and I had to tell him off.

Also it is noce to see that despite your numerous postings on various topics you are ignoring me on the "Best Defence" topic. I'm guessing it is because you know you are wrong, you have no comeback and you hope it wil be forgotten. However I'll accept an apology on this topic.

I'll get there! First I have to show you that Kebe, midfielder, 6 less goals than Gylfi (who also had 9 assists)
and a mere 51 minutes more on the pitch (a whacking, monstrous 1.54% more minutes) finished 12 places
above Gylfi. So the minutes don't explain it? The goals thing seems false?

[Wycombe Royal]

3,005 Total 2,660 League Minutes Kebe
3,209 Total 2,609 League Minutes Gylfi


So Kebe Finished 12 Places above Gylfi having played a whole 59 minutes more but scoring 6 less league goals

Did I mention Gylfi or Kebe? No I didn't. Selective again.

How about Church, Long, Rasiak and Pearce? You know, the ones I mentioned? The ones that you mentioned as not being in the Actim stats despite scoring a few goals? I just highlighted WHY they weren't included, yet you choose to ignore that, as usual, and highlight something else entirely.

[Snowball]

3,005 Total 2,660 League Minutes Kebe
3,209 Total 2,609 League Minutes Gylfi


So Kebe Finished 12 Places above Gylfi having played a whole 59 minutes more but scoring 6 less league goals

Did I mention Gylfi or Kebe? No I didn't. Selective again.

How about Church, Long, Rasiak and Pearce? You know, the ones I mentioned?

Oh come on! Isn't Gylfi a young God?

Didn't he score 6 more goals than Kebe? 160%

Aren't you folks saying that goal-scoring is the most dominant effect?

Explain then, please, why Gylfi (and don't forget all those assists) finished lower than Kebe?

I looked up their minutes because, frankly, it surprised me that Gylfi didn't make the top 20
It's not as if he was under the radar, is it?

[Wycombe Royal]

3,005 Total 2,660 League Minutes Kebe
3,209 Total 2,609 League Minutes Gylfi


So Kebe Finished 12 Places above Gylfi having played a whole 59 minutes more but scoring 6 less league goals

Did I mention Gylfi or Kebe? No I didn't. Selective again.

How about Church, Long, Rasiak and Pearce? You know, the ones I mentioned?

Oh come on! Isn't Gylfi a young God?

Didn't he score 6 more goals than Kebe? 160%

Aren't you folks saying that goal-scoring is the most dominant effect?

Explain then, please, why Gylfi (and don't forget all those assists) finished lower than Kebe?

I looked up their minutes because, frankly, it surprised me that Gylfi didn't make the top 20
It's not as if he was under the radar, is it?

What has that got to do with the FOUR players I mentioned. How many minutes did they play? Or are you ignoring it because it proves my point? We can all find ONE stat thet will prove our point, but my FOUR beats your ONE.

[Snowball]

What has that got to do with the FOUR players I mentioned. How many minutes did they play? Or are you ignoring it because it proves my point? We can all find ONE stat thet will prove our point, but my FOUR beats your ONE.

If you study Khunian theory it goes like this

1. Theory proposed, evidence supports it. Theory becomes the main one, fits the data.

2. Other data arrives makes theory less clear-cut. Theory is adapted to fit new data

3. Eventually, adaptations become silly. New theory fits the data better.



Now. In this thread it is being argued, by you and others, that goals are UNFAIRLY weighted. I am not agreeing with that, but that's "the theory".

To test that theory we would look at the correlation between goals and position, and while it is true (except for Parkin and a few others) that big scorers do well (maybe because they are good PLAYERS and their team wins etc) there is an extremely poor correlation within the groups.

We should expect all the guys scoring ten to be a lot higher than all the guys scoring two, but also, we would need to ask why is Jones (10 goals) 60 places above Smith (10 goals)?

Now I am asking you a simple question which you refuse to answer.

Kebe scored six less goals than Gylfi, (10 < 16) why is he so much above Gylfi?

It's not minutes on the pitch, is it?

WHAT then?

Kebe had 5 assists, Gylfi had NINE. So it's not assists either.


Maybe it's cards? Gylfi had 4 Yellows, Kebe 3. Or maybe not



I just want you to come up with an explanation for the Kebe-Gyfli anomaly

[Snowball]

Then just say Long doesn't feature in the top 100, simple enough isn't it?

It's hardly a joke when you're the only one laughing

It's MORE of a joke when I'm the only one laughing.

If anything your rationale that 'goals don't have a massive effect on final positions' would almost certainly count against your pro-Shane Long stance, as you argue he contributes so much else. However It once again comes down to the fact that your scattergunning of arguments and statistics make it actually impossible to follow an argument about what you are trying to disprove or prove.

You say.

[Victor Meldrew]

First prority for a left back is to defend.
Never mind Actims or any other tims that is the priority.
Paul Bodin,Stuart Gray and Ian Harte have all been capable of striking a ball well with their left foot unfortunately none of them have been capable of carrying out their first priority.
Bodin and Gray are long gone,we can only hope that Harte follows sooner rather than later.

[Wycombe Royal]

What has that got to do with the FOUR players I mentioned. How many minutes did they play? Or are you ignoring it because it proves my point? We can all find ONE stat thet will prove our point, but my FOUR beats your ONE.

If you study Khunian theory it goes like this

1. Theory proposed, evidence supports it. Theory becomes the main one, fits the data.

2. Other data arrives makes theory less clear-cut. Theory is adapted to fit new data

3. Eventually, adaptations become silly. New theory fits the data better.



Now. In this thread it is being argued, by you and others, that goals are UNFAIRLY weighted. I am not agreeing with that, but that's "the theory".

To test that theory we would look at the correlation between goals and position, and while it is true (except for Parkin and a few others) that big scorers do well (maybe because they are good PLAYERS and their team wins etc) there is an extremely poor correlation within the groups.

We should expect all the guys scoring ten to be a lot higher than all the guys scoring two, but also, we would need to ask why is Jones (10 goals) 60 places above Smith (10 goals)?

Now I am asking you a simple question which you refuse to answer.

Kebe scored six less goals than Gylfi, (10 < 16) why is he so much above Gylfi?

It's not minutes on the pitch, is it?

WHAT then?

Kebe had 5 assists, Gylfi had NINE. So it's not assists either.


Maybe it's cards? Gylfi had 4 Yellows, Kebe 3. Or maybe not



I just want you to come up with an explanation for the Kebe-Gyfli anomaly

I'm sure you already know, but points are deducted for shots off target, and you have shown endlessly how innacurate Gyfli's shoot is. I would suggest that is a very large contributing factor.

Also no-one has said that goals are the ONLY factor in the Actim stats just one of the major ones, as is minutes on the pitch. So why not show me that I am wrong on my assumption of those other 4 players?

[Snowball]

First prority for a left back is to defend.

AGREED... Why were we doing so well when he started? 3 goals conceded in 6 games, 6 in 10?

Do you think the manager picks Harte because

(a) He likes him?
(b) He likes his wife?
(c) He likes his penalty-scoring?
(d) He thinks we need his free kicks?
(e) He thinks we need his experience?
(f) He is being blackmailed?
(g) Armstrong doesn't look as good in training?
(h) Armstrong isn't really right post the injury and he needs a FB for a season?
(i) He likes Oirish people?

I voted for Stretch for Player of the Season. Top bloke, did well. Good full-back
When he arrived we were told he was a crock. We got a great season out of him
and then he went back to being a crock.

When he was good he scored 1 goal in a season.
When he was good he got zero assists in a season.
So, be fair, he was a good left-back but didn't contribute much going forward.

Harte has 4 goals in 13 games. He's put in the free-kicks for a few goals, the corners for a few goals,
made some phenomenal passes, and, until the last 4 games, we were looking like a stable defence.

0-0-3-0-0 (24th second goal at Boro down to Pearce if anyone. pearce & Cummings for the Lita Goal. Mills for the other. Harte not responsible for any of the 3 goals)
1-1-1-0 (Goal 1 Preston, Zurab 100%. Goal 2 Sinclair, Swansea, down to Mills and Griff. Goal 3 Bristol, 3-way part Harte)

THEN this shambles:

3-3-1-3

Goal 1 HRK skinned, cross from right, Harte has his own man, "Hayter Header" is a Mills OG off shoulder. Harte arguably could dive in, but... Barely responsible.
Goal 2 Howard gives away free-kick (unlucky). Attacker beats Mills, Mills position poor. Not Harte then
Goal 3 Individual mistake by Harte, fails with chest down. Mills is covering but hesitates.

Harte's free-kick for Mills goal
Harte scores equalising free-kick

QPR

Goal 4 Howard gives ball away, gets to Taarabt Griffin and Karacan skinned, Howard lunges in. Not Harte then
Goal 5 Harte done by VG pass inside him, cross-shot inexplicably back-heeled by MILLS. Goal. Partly down to Harte but the pass was VERY good.
Goal 6 Free Kick on LEFT. Saved. Defence static, only Zurab anywhere but goal Not Harte then

Cardiff

Goal 7 Shot from LEFT, miles away from Harte. Not Harte then

Norwich

Goal 08 Hunt doesn't go with runner, central defenders and Fedders expect square ball. Lashed into net. Maybe Harte is 10% at fault (or not)
Goal 09 Laziness from Zurab, unbelievably bad back-pass from MILLS. Keeper fails to narrow angle enough but brilliantly-taken goal. Not Harte then
Goal 10 Free kick given away by Howard. Poor wall. Church breaks away and leaves gap. Not great goalkeeping. Not Harte then.

Harte scores equalising goal

[Alan Partridge]

He picks Harte because of what he offers going forward. No one is seriously questioning that part of his game are they?

Defensively he's a complete liability.

[Victor Meldrew]

First prority for a left back is to defend.

AGREED... Why were we doing so well when he started? 3 goals conceded in 6 games, 6 in 10?

Do you think the manager picks Harte because

(a) He likes him?
(b) He likes his wife?
(c) He likes his penalty-scoring?
(d) He thinks we need his free kicks?
(e) He thinks we need his experience?
(f) He is being blackmailed?
(g) Armstrong doesn't look as good in training?
(h) Armstrong isn't really right post the injury and he needs a FB for a season?
(i) He likes Oirish people?

I voted for Stretch for Player of the Season. Top bloke, did well. Good full-back
When he arrived we were told he was a crock. We got a great season out of him
and then he went back to being a crock.

When he was good he scored 1 goal in a season.
When he was good he got zero assists in a season.
So, be fair, he was a good left-back but didn't contribute much going forward.

Harte has 4 goals in 13 games. He's put in the free-kicks for a few goals, the corners for a few goals,
made some phenomenal passes, and, until the last 4 games, we were looking like a stable defence.

0-0-3-0-0 (24th second goal at Boro down to Pearce if anyone. pearce & Cummings for the Lita Goal. Mills for the other. Harte not responsible for any of the 3 goals)
1-1-1-0 (Goal 1 Preston, Zurab 100%. Goal 2 Sinclair, Swansea, down to Mills and Griff. Goal 3 Bristol, 3-way part Harte)

THEN this shambles:

3-3-1-3

Goal 1 HRK skinned, cross from right, Harte has his own man, "Hayter Header" is a Mills OG off shoulder. Harte arguably could dive in, but... Barely responsible.
Goal 2 Howard gives away free-kick (unlucky). Attacker beats Mills, Mills position poor. Not Harte then
Goal 3 Individual mistake by Harte, fails with chest down. Mills is covering but hesitates.

Harte's free-kick for Mills goal
Harte scores equalising free-kick

QPR

Goal 4 Howard gives ball away, gets to Taarabt Griffin and Karacan skinned, Howard lunges in. Not Harte then
Goal 5 Harte done by VG pass inside him, cross-shot inexplicably back-heeled by MILLS. Goal. Partly down to Harte but the pass was VERY good.
Goal 6 Free Kick on LEFT. Saved. Defence static, only Zurab anywhere but goal Not Harte then

Cardiff

Goal 7 Shot from LEFT, miles away from Harte. Not Harte then

Norwich

Goal 08 Hunt doesn't go with runner, central defenders and Fedders expect square ball. Lashed into net. Maybe Harte is 10% at fault (or not)
Goal 09 Laziness from Zurab, unbelievably bad back-pass from MILLS. Keeper fails to narrow angle enough but brilliantly-taken goal. Not Harte then
Goal 10 Free kick given away by Howard. Poor wall. Church breaks away and leaves gap. Not great goalkeeping. Not Harte then.

Harte scores equalising goal

It could be any of those reasons-managers have favourites and are prepared to give them more chances than other players.
Tabb for example is the opposite (maybe because he is only a liitle bit Irish with a London accent )
Pardew had a blind spot with Rougier and Hughes.
Benitez had a blind spot with Lucas.
It happens and eventually they concede.
BTW managers are not perfect.

[Snowball]

So I make it, for these last ten goals

Goal 01 30% HRK 65% Mills, 5% Harte
Goal 02 30% Howard 70% Mills
Goal 03 70% Harte 30% Mills
Goal 04 70% Howard 15% Griffin and Karacan
Goal 05 50% Harte 50% Mills
Goal 06 Not Harte then
Goal 07 Not Harte then
Goal 08 40% Hunt 10% Fedders 10% Harte 40% CB
Goal 09 20% Zurab 70% Mills 10% Fedders
Goal 10 30% Howard, 20% Captain 40% Church 10% Feds

Mills has scored a goal, Harte has scored two goals and made a goal

ALL defenders make mistakes, FBs get beaten by trickery or pace. Our wingers do it to the opposition every day

The real question is how often is a defender ultimately at fault for GOALS CONCEDED?

[Snowball]

I'm sure you already know, but points are deducted for shots off target, and you have shown endlessly how innacurate Gyfli's shoot is.
I would suggest that is a very large contributing factor.

Since shots off target are a negative (you say) are you actually saying that Gylfi's wastefulness made him a less-valuable player?

[Snowball]

He picks Harte because of what he offers going forward. No one is seriously questioning that part of his game are they?

Yes they most definitely ARE questioning his wing play and crosses

Defensively he's a complete liability.

Mills is a lot worse, Zurab is not exactly squeaky-clean. Only Griffin is clearly "sound"

[Snowball]

Victor, try thinking of positive, rational reasons why Harte is being picked over Armstrong