Generic clubs in financial crisis Thread

[Silver Fox]

Interesting piece in the new Private Eye about Pompey's latest Eastern european owner, who has apparently sailed through the fit and proper test, which lists all the trouble he's had with the FSA over the years including but not limited to accusations of money laundering and russian mob involvement. Good work by the powers that be again.

[Uke]

Birmingham owner charged with money laundering.

BBC correspondent Annemarie Evans said he had been arrested by the narcotic bureau's financial investigations unit at his home.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bi ... m-13970534


Another fit & proper person? (although not found guilty yet)

[roadrunner]

Birmingham owner charged with money laundering.

BBC correspondent Annemarie Evans said he had been arrested by the narcotic bureau's financial investigations unit at his home.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bi ... m-13970534


Another fit & proper person? (although not found guilty yet)

A great advert for Birmingham City FC on SSN today. Pannu or what ever his name is trying to calm fans by saying the Yeung is innocent until proven guilty, and also to remember that previous owners were bailed but not convicted. LOL. What a club!

[TheMaraudingDog]

It all depends how vigorously teh relevant league polices it and investigates. I doubt the FL will have the money to police it properly, but the Bundesliga has a whole team of forensic accountants who look into the accounts throughout the year and see where all the money is going.

Clubs will have to balance the likelihood of getting caught against the penalties to be imposed - and in places where this is taken seriously the clubs know that the penalties are severe - for instance automatic relegation.

The PL would have the resources to investigate and police it properly - whether they would is another issue.

There would be nothing to 'get caught' of. The club shop isn't part of the club, the players are also employees of the shop. The shop gets a huge wedge of cash from the club in some royalty agreement and the players get paid.

Simple.

[Focher]

this is the first time ive ever looked at this thread.

I now realise why what a boring load of shit.

[Red]

LOL - I dip in every now and again thinking 108 pages can't all be wrong surely?

Oh, they can.

[Svlad Cjelli]

It all depends how vigorously teh relevant league polices it and investigates. I doubt the FL will have the money to police it properly, but the Bundesliga has a whole team of forensic accountants who look into the accounts throughout the year and see where all the money is going.

Clubs will have to balance the likelihood of getting caught against the penalties to be imposed - and in places where this is taken seriously the clubs know that the penalties are severe - for instance automatic relegation.

The PL would have the resources to investigate and police it properly - whether they would is another issue.

There would be nothing to 'get caught' of. The club shop isn't part of the club, the players are also employees of the shop. The shop gets a huge wedge of cash from the club in some royalty agreement and the players get paid.

Simple.

All depends upon exactly how the rules are written - the forensic accountants who look at the books are wise to ruses like this, and the club has to disclose *all* payment to registered players, made for whatever purpose. They'd also look at the whole club, including the club shop income & expenses in their investigations.

Sure clubs can try and cheat it, but if they get found out they run the risk of severe penalties - for instance in Aussie Rules Football (where's there's a similar salary cap system) there have been all sorts of penalties imposed for non-complaisance:

- In 2002, the Canterbury Bulldogs were fined the maximum of $500,000 and deducted all 37 premiership points received during the season after it was found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations described by NRL Chief Executive David Gallop as "exceptional in both its size and its deliberate and ongoing nature" totaling $2.13 million between 2000 and 2002, including $750,000 in 2001 and $920,000 in 2002. The points penalty meant that the club won the 2002 wooden spoon. Two senior club officials were charged with 21 counts of fraud, theft and forgery by the NSW Police; they pleaded guilty, were sentenced to nine years imprisonment with a non-parole period of seven years, and suspended for life.
- In 2002, Carlton were fined a record $987,500 and forfeited their priority picks in the National Draft, their first and second round picks in the National Draft for two years and were excluded from the 2003 pre-season draft after an AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totaling $1.37 million between 1998 and 2001; ruckman Matthew Allan was suspended for five matches and fined $10,000 for accepting undisclosed payments from club officials. Carlton struggled for seven years as it recovered both on and off the field from these significant penalties, finishing no higher than 11th in 2004 and winning their first-ever wooden spoons in 2002, 2005 and 2006

[Svlad Cjelli]

The ownership of Plymouth and their stadium due to be separated today - alway a bad sign.

http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Deal-sell-Plymouth-Argyle-stadium-signed-today/story-12860268-detail/story.html

[Far from the royal crowds]

It all depends how vigorously teh relevant league polices it and investigates. I doubt the FL will have the money to police it properly, but the Bundesliga has a whole team of forensic accountants who look into the accounts throughout the year and see where all the money is going.

Clubs will have to balance the likelihood of getting caught against the penalties to be imposed - and in places where this is taken seriously the clubs know that the penalties are severe - for instance automatic relegation.

The PL would have the resources to investigate and police it properly - whether they would is another issue.

There would be nothing to 'get caught' of. The club shop isn't part of the club, the players are also employees of the shop. The shop gets a huge wedge of cash from the club in some royalty agreement and the players get paid.

Simple.

All depends upon exactly how the rules are written - the forensic accountants who look at the books are wise to ruses like this, and the club has to disclose *all* payment to registered players, made for whatever purpose. They'd also look at the whole club, including the club shop income & expenses in their investigations.

Sure clubs can try and cheat it, but if they get found out they run the risk of severe penalties - for instance in Aussie Rules Football (where's there's a similar salary cap system) there have been all sorts of penalties imposed for non-complaisance:

- In 2002, the Canterbury Bulldogs were fined the maximum of $500,000 and deducted all 37 premiership points received during the season after it was found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations described by NRL Chief Executive David Gallop as "exceptional in both its size and its deliberate and ongoing nature" totaling $2.13 million between 2000 and 2002, including $750,000 in 2001 and $920,000 in 2002. The points penalty meant that the club won the 2002 wooden spoon. Two senior club officials were charged with 21 counts of fraud, theft and forgery by the NSW Police; they pleaded guilty, were sentenced to nine years imprisonment with a non-parole period of seven years, and suspended for life.
- In 2002, Carlton were fined a record $987,500 and forfeited their priority picks in the National Draft, their first and second round picks in the National Draft for two years and were excluded from the 2003 pre-season draft after an AFL investigation found that they had committed serious and systematic breaches of the salary cap regulations totaling $1.37 million between 1998 and 2001; ruckman Matthew Allan was suspended for five matches and fined $10,000 for accepting undisclosed payments from club officials. Carlton struggled for seven years as it recovered both on and off the field from these significant penalties, finishing no higher than 11th in 2004 and winning their first-ever wooden spoons in 2002, 2005 and 2006

I think it was last year that Melbourne Storm were also found guilty of breaking the NRL salary cap, had the previous season's cup stripped from them and were unable to play for points the following season - regardless of score, the points went to their opponents.

But then, there's no threat of relegation here and the number of teams that have been caught suggests that it's not taken very seriously. I think there are a few more investigations under way at the moment.

[Svlad Cjelli]

But we've not got the regaulations in yet - they've only been agred so far. They have to have relegation as a penalty though, and properly thought-through and financed compliance/investigation teams, or they're pretty pointless.

[rhroyal]

this is the first time ive ever looked at this thread.

I now realise why what a boring load of shit.

Largely bourne out of frustration and bitterness that we're still not rewarded for our clean, stable financial affairs. At the bottom of most posts is a yearning for the judgement day when all these clubs go to shit and Reading gain a Champions League place via default.

[under the tin]

this is the first time ive ever looked at this thread.

I now realise why what a boring load of shit.

Largely bourne out of frustration and bitterness that we're still not rewarded for our clean, stable financial affairs. At the bottom of most posts is a yearning for the judgement day when all these clubs go to shit and Reading gain a Champions League place via default.

And the bigger frustration is that, deep down, we all know that the justice system is built on your ability to hire a better brief than your opponent. A good advocate can make make Mother Theresa sound like the Yorkshire ripper, and vice versa. The rich clubs, where all the proper money is concentrated, can afford (cough) to hire litigators who will tie the system up in knots for years, until this perceived problem goes away.
As the French put it, Plus ca change.........

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

this is the first time ive ever looked at this thread.

I now realise why what a boring load of shit.

Largely bourne out of frustration and bitterness that we're still not rewarded for our clean, stable financial affairs. At the bottom of most posts is a yearning for the judgement day when all these clubs go to shit and Reading gain a Champions League place via default.

And the bigger frustration is that, deep down, we all know that the justice system is built on your ability to hire a better brief than your opponent. A good advocate can make make Mother Theresa sound like the Yorkshire ripper, and vice versa. The rich clubs, where all the proper money is concentrated, can afford (cough) to hire litigators who will tie the system up in knots for years, until this perceived problem goes away.
As the French put it, Plus ca change.........

If the USA, the natural habitat of lawyers and loopholes, can manage to implement salary caps, revenue sharing etc without legal challenges, then it can't be impossible.

One big difference there is the mindset of the owners. Crazy as it may seem, they don't actually want to spend 125% of their turnover on wages over there.

[Svlad Cjelli]

If the USA, the natural habitat of lawyers and loopholes, can manage to implement salary caps, revenue sharing etc without legal challenges, then it can't be impossible.

One big difference there is the mindset of the owners. Crazy as it may seem, they don't actually want to spend 125% of their turnover on wages over there.

But the biggest difference is also teh lack of relegation in the USA. Owners know that if their team has a bad season they don't face a cut in income of potentially about 80% - and potential financial ruin. So they don't have the incentive to bet the house on staying up or going up. It's all short-term, "let's survive this season" thinking here.

[floyd__streete]

Heartwarming isn't it to see that Pompey have shrugged off their financial troubles to sign a Reading traget in Jason Pearce and seem set to sign Luke Varney from Derby having already had a sizeable bid for Paterson of Burnley.

RFC might just as well conduct their business in as shambolic a way as Pompey have done in recent years; we have absolutely no discernable advantage of them for our prudence

[Svlad Cjelli]

...... we have absolutely no discernable advantage of them for our prudence

We do though - we have the moral high ground, and the ability to look down our noses at them whenever they're mentioned. We also have the satisfaction of knowing that any success that comes our way is real success, which we've earned, rather than sham success, bought with someone else's money.

[Who Moved The Goalposts?]

...... we have absolutely no discernable advantage of them for our prudence

We do though - we have the moral high ground, and the ability to look down our noses at them whenever they're mentioned. We also have the satisfaction of knowing that any success that comes our way is real success, which we've earned, rather than sham success, bought with someone else's money.

Generally I'm with you on most things, but not on this. Having the moral high gound is no good when it's largely the rest of the game that is at fault as we know the status quo will go on and on. With Leicester spending like it's gone out of fashion (who's their chairman, again?) after previously cheating their way to the premiership and getting a cut price new stadium as a result, I won't be happy until someone gets to *really* pay for their lack of judgement.

I love football, but I won't spend another bean on it while it's in its current form.

[floyd__streete]

Generally I'm with you on most things, but not on this. Having the moral high gound is no good when it's largely the rest of the game that is at fault as we know the status quo will go on and on. With Leicester spending like it's gone out of fashion (who's their chairman, again?) after previously cheating their way to the premiership and getting a cut price new stadium as a result, I won't be happy until someone gets to *really* pay for their lack of judgement.

I love football, but I won't spend another bean on it while it's in its current form.

This, apart from the last sentence because I do not have enough supplementary interests in my tragically dull life to forsake my favourite hobby, that being wasting money watching average-to-poor football.

The moral highground will be a lonely viewing platform from which to see the likes of Leicester and Portsmouth finish well above us next season.

[Tony Le Mesmer]

Take a look at all the teams who have gone into administration, or have suffered financially as a result of overspending in recent years.

Then come back and tell me where they are now.

Not only that, but with the possible exception of Portsmouth and their tainted Cup win, none of their supporters have had it as good as us over the last 10 years.

[Mr Angry]

Looks like Plymouth are about to have new owners.....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/14017484.stm