Latest club accounts

[Tinrib]

Its all about the working capital position & the continued support of the owner(s), and the banks..

The majority of all Football Clubs never make a profit..and given we have no bank overdraft anymore (which is the hole the Gylfi sale filled) we are yet again indebted to Mr Mad for his continued support.

Simple really.

[mr_number]

I LOVE the accounting threads.
In other news, at least we're not Bristol City http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15935151.stm
A total loss of about £30m in three years. Niiiiiice.

[Svlad Cjelli]

I LOVE the accounting threads.
In other news, at least we're not Bristol City http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15935151.stm
A total loss of about £30m in three years. Niiiiiice.

Or Portsmouth, where the new chairman is being charged with fraud, and the holding company has gone bust so a points deduction is imminent.

[Fox Talbot]

The accounts say we're about +£8m on transfers since 30.6.11 which covers last year's loss and either gives us £3m to splurge in Jan or use to cover this year's losses.

Didn't look as though the Cup run and play-off final money made much impact, certainly not in comparison with the PL money.

[Barry the bird boggler]

I LOVE the accounting threads.
In other news, at least we're not Bristol City http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15935151.stm
A total loss of about £30m in three years. Niiiiiice.

Or Portsmouth, where the new chairman is being charged with fraud, and the holding company has gone bust so a points deduction is imminent.

Portsmouth fans reckon they won't get a points deduction as it's not the same as Southampton as the holding company owned more businesses than just the football club.

[Barry the bird boggler]

Is there any club in the professional leagues that is actually turning in a profit? Can't be more than a handful if there are any.

[melonhead]

The accounts say we're about +£8m on transfers since 30.6.11 which covers last year's loss and either gives us £3m to splurge in Jan or use to cover this year's losses.

Didn't look as though the Cup run and play-off final money made much impact, certainly not in comparison with the PL money.

's what dirk said innit


hopefully, if we get kebe off the wage bill, and this extra 3 million, we may not have to sell anyone this summer..........
maybe

[Svlad Cjelli]

I LOVE the accounting threads.
In other news, at least we're not Bristol City http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/15935151.stm
A total loss of about £30m in three years. Niiiiiice.

Or Portsmouth, where the new chairman is being charged with fraud, and the holding company has gone bust so a points deduction is imminent.

Portsmouth fans reckon they won't get a points deduction as it's not the same as Southampton as the holding company owned more businesses than just the football club.

Hmmmm, maybe. It's a moot point : http://footballmanagement.wordpress.com/2011/11/29/pompey-and-the-potential-for-points-deduction/

Personally I think they're clutching at straws, and as the football club now has no source of income or short-term lending whatsoever surely their time is nigh again.

[Elmer Park]

The main areas of concern to me in the article are the fact that the wage bill is 90% of turnover and the fact that SJM has increased his loans to £26.3 million.

Although it is clearly better to owe money to your own Chairman than to HMRC or Inland Revenue or even to have the debts spread around other parties, I still don't believe it is a healthy situation that the amount due to SJM, a man of 70 years of age, has increased again and not reduced. I cannot suggest a way things could have been handled better, except to cut costs which wouldn't have been popular with many of us, but the level of debt still concerns me no matter who it is owed to.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Forgive me for possibly regurgitating a point already addressed in our reams of accounting threads in which nobody shows any sign of actually knowing anything at all, but what is the actual benefit to being ‘well run’ as apposed to mounting debt?

I’m still waiting for the moment I’ll be able to go “See? We are the only clever team on the planet. Scrooging is what gets success, my friend!”. But all the shite football, loss of decent players, high ticket prices and shabby wages makes gloating more uncomfortable than eating in a Pizza Express with a disabled ramp. Seriously PE, get some screens or something – I’m eating here.

[melonhead]

just missed out on playoffs, playoff final, great cup runs, just outside of playoffs now
and one of the only teams to be relegated from the prem, who didnt make it straight back up who didnt go down to league 1/go into administration

yeah, awful

its amazing we have any fans at all, if thats anything to go by,
when i was watching awful football at elm park id have killed for that kind of shite football and lack of success.

[rhroyal]

You also need to understand the difference between accounting profit and the actual cash movements. If we have lost £5.3m in the year due to depreciation of assets then this is not cash that has been lost as depreciation is not a cash item.

As for players I always thought it was their contract that was the asset and that is what is depreciated. So a player with six months to go an a contract may have an asset value of practically nothing, yet he could be sold in the January transfer window for a few million. I may be wrong on that assumption though.

But we don't know which assets have been depreciated - it could be players, it could be the stadium, it could be the training ground, etc......I guess we'll have to wait and see when the accounts are published.

Obviously cash is highly important, but you can't go discounting losses saying "It's only depreciation."

Ultimately losses mean the club is worse off than they were 12 months ago. End of.

Not necessarily, there are businesses out there that turn a loss nearly every year but which are doing quite well and continuing to grow, yet you have others who always turn a profit and go out of business. The reason is nearly always cash flow. The problem is that non-finance people always see the profit or loss as the be-all and end-all of how is business is doing yet it is probably the least important financial statement that a business produces.

Consider context here though. Depreciation almost certainly means contracts, for the likes of Kebe.

If we renew them, it could well be for higher wages + signing on fees. That will impact our cash flow. If we don't renew them, we will have to look at some form of replacement. That will impact cash flow.

The same applies for companies. If assets depreciate to the point of disposal, it's either the cash accounts or creditors column that takes a hit when they replace it. If creditors, they need a very healthy bank balance to provide for this, which leads to a similar ultimate effect.

It's true you can make a loss and improve your cash flow, but it will catch up with you in the long run. Buy 100 cars on credit and sell 10 for cash, you've made a massive loss and improved your cash flow. You're still screwed. Extreme example, but the logic follows. Equally buy in cash and sell on credit and you're in trouble.

You need profits and a decent cash flow; a listed company will see their share prices fall significantly without healthy positions in both. Effects of profit/loss are likely to catch up with cash flow in the long run.

If it is just one year's account where we're making a loss due to depreciation, I'd agree that it's not a big deal. But it should still concern SJM; if intangible assets depreciate year on year, it will catch up with us when we have to incur the expense to replace them.

If we don't replace them adequately, we could go down, which will then have a massive impact on very tangible items such as ticket receipts and TV revenue.

[rhroyal]

The accounts say we're about +£8m on transfers since 30.6.11 which covers last year's loss and either gives us £3m to splurge in Jan or use to cover this year's losses.

Didn't look as though the Cup run and play-off final money made much impact, certainly not in comparison with the PL money.

's what dirk said innit


hopefully, if we get kebe off the wage bill, and this extra 3 million, we may not have to sell anyone this summer..........
maybe

I don't know who anybody in our squad we could sell for a decent amount right now, to be honest.

[melonhead]

you wait till bayesa and church score 20 each in the 2nd half of the season

[Extended-Phenotype]

just missed out on playoffs, playoff final, great cup runs, just outside of playoffs now
and one of the only teams to be relegated from the prem, who didnt make it straight back up who didnt go down to league 1/go into administration

yeah, awful

its amazing we have any fans at all, if thats anything to go by,
when i was watching awful football at elm park id have killed for that kind of shite football and lack of success.

F//ing Spin doctor.

[Ian Royal]

Forgive me for possibly regurgitating a point already addressed in our reams of accounting threads in which nobody shows any sign of actually knowing anything at all, but what is the actual benefit to being ‘well run’ as apposed to mounting debt?

I’m still waiting for the moment I’ll be able to go “See? We are the only clever team on the planet. Scrooging is what gets success, my friend!”. But all the shite football, loss of decent players, high ticket prices and shabby wages makes gloating more uncomfortable than eating in a Pizza Express with a disabled ramp. Seriously PE, get some screens or something – I’m eating here.

No points deductions. No threat of being wound up and costly legal battles against HMRC. Actually having some integrity. No risk of assets (when I say assets I mean things like the Stadium, training ground, hotel) being flogged off on the cheap to find a bit of cash to pay the bills. You can't get a Stadium on the cheap and then flog it for a huge profit, plowing a small proportion of that money into a new stadium and go through the process again.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Forgive me for possibly regurgitating a point already addressed in our reams of accounting threads in which nobody shows any sign of actually knowing anything at all, but what is the actual benefit to being ‘well run’ as apposed to mounting debt?

I’m still waiting for the moment I’ll be able to go “See? We are the only clever team on the planet. Scrooging is what gets success, my friend!”. But all the shite football, loss of decent players, high ticket prices and shabby wages makes gloating more uncomfortable than eating in a Pizza Express with a disabled ramp. Seriously PE, get some screens or something – I’m eating here.

No points deductions. No threat of being wound up and costly legal battles against HMRC. Actually having some integrity. No risk of assets (when I say assets I mean things like the Stadium, training ground, hotel) being flogged off on the cheap to find a bit of cash to pay the bills. You can't get a Stadium on the cheap and then flog it for a huge profit, plowing a small proportion of that money into a new stadium and go through the process again.

JM owns the training ground and rents it back to RFC according to those in the know. There is a debt on the hotel that would keep you and me and our families in luxury forever, it is a cash negative asset I think, but only just.

[Wycombe Royal]

If it is just one year's account where we're making a loss due to depreciation

I don't believe we are. I think that was just the EP looking at the account and seeing £5m depreciation when in fact it was also £5m in previous seasons.

The real reason I think we are making a loss, and I haven't seen the accounts, is that this is the first season without parachute payments. If my estimations are correct we have lost £11m in revenue by not having them but we have only had an approximately £7.5m swing from profit to loss which would indicate we have done a decent job of cutting costs further.

But like I said I haven't seen the account so I could be wide of the mark with those comments.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Booooo, cut the clubs donation to players pensions that will teach em, strike, FFS some here think they already are, at least for 45 mins a game.

[melonhead]

just missed out on playoffs, playoff final, great cup runs, just outside of playoffs now
and one of the only teams to be relegated from the prem, who didnt make it straight back up who didnt go down to league 1/go into administration

yeah, awful

its amazing we have any fans at all, if thats anything to go by,
when i was watching awful football at elm park id have killed for that kind of shite football and lack of success.

F//ing Spin doctor.

F//ing whinger!