England vs Holland

[Hoop Blah]

Totally agree Vision.

I think over half the caps in yesterdays side came from two players (Gerrard & Barry) and it's a stark contrast to the Dutch team who have already spent the last few years gelling and building up to be the team they are at this level.

We do lack the cutting edge that we need, but we've got some decent players coming through to replace the current team which has basically been in place for 8-10 years. Game like last night, where we did ok against a top team, are an important part of those players development.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

To me it just showed a case of "new England, same as old England". Flat track bullies with a good record in qualifiers, who struggle the moment they come up against any team with real quality. I think we'll struggle to get out of our group in Ukraine in the summer.

Define 'struggle'? If you mean, we don't often beat teams that are without doubt better than us, then yes, you're right. But as I highlighted on this or another thread, our recent competitive record against the best teams isn't bad.

Argentina 2-2, lost on penalties
Brazil 1-2 (and we might/should have won it)
Italy 0-0
Portugal 2-2, lost on penalties
Spain, when did we last play them competitively?
Germany 1-4
France, don't remember the score, didn't they get a last minute winner?
Holland 4-0

It's only Germany that have given us an absolute pasting. It's a myth that we are out of our depth when we come up against the best sides.

When you put it that way, and see our fine record of one win against decent sides, it really does prove we are on the same level, doesn't it?


One thing that confused me last night. The was a clash of heads which stopped the game for 5-10 minutes. Five goals. Numerous subs. Yet only four minutes of added time. How does that work out?

[cmonurz]

We aren't on the same level. Don't straw man me. You said we 'struggle' whenever we come up against a decent side. As rightly stated by others, we generally perform ok against the better sides, we are edged out on penalties or by the odd goal.

Our achilles heal is the more moderate sides who either a) set up very defensively or b) for all their limitations are very good in possession of the ball.

Who knows how we'll do in the summer - but I guarantee you we won't 'bully' lesser sides like Ukraine, we'll probably do best against a more fluid side like France.

Sweden is just Sweden. Why oh why do we have to draw Sweden.

[Rev Algenon Stickleback H]

We aren't on the same level. Don't straw man me. You said we 'struggle' whenever we come up against a decent side. As rightly stated by others, we generally perform ok against the better sides, we are edged out on penalties or by the odd goal.

Our achilles heal is the more moderate sides who either a) set up very defensively or b) for all their limitations are very good in possession of the ball.

Struggle doesn't mean "get thrashed by". It means "find it very difficult to beat".

If those seven games were league games we'd have 6 points, and that'd be relegation form.

[cmonurz]

Well that’s the difference between club and international football – the excellent teams are that much tougher to beat. Spain and Holland recently won something like 16 or 18 consecutive qualifying matches, nevermind their performances in the major championships themselves. I don’t think it’s a valid criticism of England that we don’t beat the best in the world. We aren’t the best in the world, or certainly if you read many of the comments on here, even close to being at their level. Steven Gerrard is considered by many a waste of space on here. Likewise Rooney. These two are arguably our best players.

It’s no surprise we struggle to beat these sides. That doesn’t make us flat track bullies, it makes us a good and effective side, just lacking that little bit of quality to make a step up to the next level.

[Bring Back The SB]

.................................Hart........................................

Richards..........Jones.................Terry.......................Cole

.....................Wiltshire.........Parker...............................


Chaimberlain...............Gerrard..............................Young


...............................Rooney



IMO With the right manager managing, this team could do something in the euros.

[TBM]

I would have Walcott ahead of AOC to start with.........then bring AOC on when the legs tire

[FiNeRaIn]

Thats the best team anyone has linked yet. Only question marks for me would be terry.

[Mr Angry]

Central defence is a key area, and the sooner a new pairing - and I'd suggest Jones & Smalling - get games together, the better.

[cmonurz]

Agree with all of the above, that team makes sense to me, with Smalling for Terry in the mid to long-term, and Walcott in place of AOC, for now. I’d like to think that’s where the heads of England’s current and future management are too, so nervous hearing Harry say he wants Scholes back.

[Cobi]

I would have Walcott ahead of AOC to start with.........then bring AOC on when the legs tire

Walcott lacks an end product though. The other way around maybe, but either way, please no Milner! Way over-rated!

[Bring Back The SB]

Agree with all of the above, that team makes sense to me, with Smalling for Terry in the mid to long-term, and Walcott in place of AOC, for now. I’d like to think that’s where the heads of England’s current and future management are too, so nervous hearing Harry say he wants Scholes back.

1-0 up against France with 15 to go, someone to hold the ball and some experience around the place. Couldn't think of anyone better

[Hoop Blah]

I'd have serious doubts over playing Rooney up tops in that side. He's at his best with licence to roam and with someone ahead of him to create space. He's had good games (and runs of form) playing upfront for Man Utd, and occassionally for England, but more often than not it leads to him getting frustrated at the lack of space and also means the team lack a presence up top to stretch teams and we end up dropping deeper and deeper and can't attack teams because there's no forward on the last man.

Rooney behind Bent >> Gerrard behind Rooney.

It does highlight the lack of quality centre forwards to play with Rooney, let alone instead of him.

[cmonurz]

Andy Carroll should be that player, not sure what is hindering his development really, perhaps just a lifestyle problem.

Peter Crouch?

[Hoop Blah]

Defoe would actually be my obvious choice. I think Crouch was harshly treated though and wouldn't bemoan him coming back into things (not seen a lot of him for Stoke so have no idea how he's playing)

Carroll could be, but he's a different option which possibly doesn't fit with the way we're possibly looking to play. Rooney's ideal partner needs to make defences drop a bit deeper and make runs behind them. That fits in with the pacey wingers we keep playing on the wrong flanks. Carroll works in a system where you get crosses in or ask him to play with his back to goal. I'm not sure that's what the rest of the England squad needs.

[TBM]

I would have Walcott ahead of AOC to start with.........then bring AOC on when the legs tire

Walcott lacks an end product though. The other way around maybe, but either way, please no Milner! Way over-rated!

He didn't against Croatia tbf and numerous times for Arsenal this season he's come good (Chelsea/Spurs spring to mind).....i just think his pace will worry the opposition more, tire the full back out, then AOC could then come on and tear him a new a-hole

[ZacNaloen]

Walcott has a number of assists this year.

Not as many goals as last year, but still a respectable number for a winger.

[Hoop Blah]

Walcott's just a rich mans Kebe. He'll do some brilliant things at times but too often he just gets things wrong.

That's not too much of an issue for Arsenal who generally keep the ball really well and have the majority of the ball. He gets lots of chances to try again.

In the big games for England I think we need players who are a bit more consistent and look after the ball a bit better (ie not like Ashley Young last night).

[floyd__streete]

At 0-2 I wanted Holland to go on and win by 4 or 5 to rid us off the frightening possibility of Pearce leading the team into Euro 2012.

Consider his track-record: releg8ion with Forest, presided over a period of abject mediocrity at City (remember David James playing up front?). His squad selection for this game was almost selfishly conservative; don't pick anyone particularly new or exciting as a poor result may hamper the chances of getting the job on a longer term basis . Why on earth was Oxlade-Chamberlain, for example, not selected for a full debut?

[Hoop Blah]

Why on earth was Oxlade-Chamberlain, for example, not selected for a full debut?

No arguments from me on Pearce's suitability for the job, but Oxlade-Chamberlain was left with the U21s for pretty good reasons.

They had a qualifier to win and Sturridge, Johnson and to a lesser extent Walcott all had points to prove just as much as him. I can see the reasoning behind leaving him out but it's just a matter of time before he makes to jump up to the senior team.