Where was Guthrie again?!

[melonhead]

loads of people.
loads of people still saying it




id also imagine adkins would deal with him in exactly the same way if he refused to play as brian did

[Extended-Phenotype]

It wouldn’t be fair to say that every mistake Guthrie made was Brian’s fault.

It might be fair to say that some of his weaker performances under Brian were down to what he was asked to do, the style of play McD had us playing and being regularly dropped without a fair run in the side that other players (performing equally as badly or worse) were afforded.

[Hoop Blah]

loads of people.
loads of people still saying it

Not really, IMO they're saying McDermott didn't get the best from Guthrie not that it was his fault for every tiny error that Guthrie made on the pitch.

For what it's worth though, a player is going to make more mistakes when he's being made to play in an un-natural way and his team-mates are doing one thing when the player wants them to do another thus his options are restricted.

It's obviously not McDermotts fault that every player has limitations and is going to make mistakes throughout a game though!

[melonhead]

not really no. loads of people blaming brian when guthrie was passing to the opposition/the stands
loads of people still doing so.

[ZacNaloen]

Everyone makes mistakes, but those mistakes can be compounded if the whole team is malfunctioning due to bad instructions.

It's why Leigertwood was equal times majestic and awful imo.

[Hoop Blah]

not really no. loads of people blaming brian when guthrie was passing to the opposition/the stands
loads of people still doing so.

Well to a reasonable part that was McDermotts fault.

He's the one who was asking them to play a certain way which playing a lot of a type of ball (longer and quicker) which means it was against Guthries normal instinct and more prone to going wrong (as in a lump down the channel or longer ball into the corner is more likely to lead to a 50/50 or go out of play).

If you can't understand how doing something un-natural leads to a player getting more things wrong then there isn't a lot of point carrying on the conversation.

[melonhead]

although, lets be fair. he spent a half season just getting them to go at teams.
we passed it really nicely Vs chelsea at their place and on other occasions under brian etc
arsenal in the cup, united at home 1st half.

[melonhead]

not really no. loads of people blaming brian when guthrie was passing to the opposition/the stands
loads of people still doing so.

Well to a reasonable part that was McDermotts fault.

He's the one who was asking them to play a certain way which playing a lot of a type of ball (longer and quicker) which means it was against Guthries normal instinct and more prone to going wrong (as in a lump down the channel or longer ball into the corner is more likely to lead to a 50/50 or go out of play).

If you can't understand how doing something un-natural leads to a player getting more things wrong then there isn't a lot of point carrying on the conversation.

lol at you getting all uppity about it.lol at being unable to understand. lol at you.
frankly couldnt care less if you carry on or not.

im aware that brian asked guthrie to play in different ways to what he was used to.(in a very early knee jerk response to losing games with guthrie playing in his normal role)

but he is a proffesional footballer. its his job to follow instructions layed out by whoever his manager is, at whatever club. and refusing to play makes him a oxf*rd. the end. no argument.
at no point have i suggested that he did this in response to nothing at all. of course it was in response to brian. im simply saying thats no excuse. the be all and end all for me is that he refused to play.
yes brian takes responsibility for man managing him to that response. but LOL at seriouslybacking guthrie up on that in any way.

[winchester_royal]

It should also be pointed out that Guthrie was playing in an unnatural pasition under Brian, whereas he's now sitting much deeper in Nigel's team.

Brian isn't solely to blame, obviously, but given the manager's job is to get the best out of the players at his disposal, and given that Danny is one our highest earners and also one of our more talented players, the finger should certainly be pointed at him to a certain extent.

Who cares though? The future's looking bright, so let's all revel in this upturn in form before the ineveitable spanking by City next week.

[Maguire]

It wouldn’t be fair to say that every mistake Guthrie made was Brian’s fault.

It might be fair to say that some of his weaker performances under Brian were down to what he was asked to do, the style of play McD had us playing and being regularly dropped without a fair run in the side that other players (performing equally as badly or worse) were afforded.

That's fair (to continue the fair theme), although lest we forget this is a player who outright refused to play for the club. My sympathies with regard to him not getting a fair run in the side are mitigated by his shit attitude.

[Hoop Blah]

not really no. loads of people blaming brian when guthrie was passing to the opposition/the stands
loads of people still doing so.

Well to a reasonable part that was McDermotts fault.

He's the one who was asking them to play a certain way which playing a lot of a type of ball (longer and quicker) which means it was against Guthries normal instinct and more prone to going wrong (as in a lump down the channel or longer ball into the corner is more likely to lead to a 50/50 or go out of play).

If you can't understand how doing something un-natural leads to a player getting more things wrong then there isn't a lot of point carrying on the conversation.

lol at you getting all uppity about it.lol at being unable to understand. lol at you.
frankly couldnt care less if you carry on or not.

im aware that brian asked guthrie to play in different ways to what he was used to.(in a very early knee jerk response to losing games with guthrie playing in his normal role)

but he is a proffesional footballer. its his job to follow instructions layed out by whoever his manager is, at whatever club. and refusing to play makes him a oxf*rd. the end. no argument.
at no point have i suggested that he did this in response to nothing at all. of course it was in response to brian. im simply saying thats no excuse. the be all and end all for me is that he refused to play.
yes brian takes responsibility for man managing him to that response. but LOL at seriouslybacking guthrie up on that in any way.

I'm not getting uppity about it, I just can't be bothered to explain it over and over again when you're obviously not interested in the reality because of Guthrie's off the field issues (which I'm not defending).

I do think McDermotts handling of the player contributed to him not travelling to Sunderland but in now way does that excuse him throwing his toys out (I did make a point at the time about his mental health may have contributed to it, and that isn't something that should be ignored though).

You seem to be missing the point that Guthrie was following instructions and trying to play to the team pattern. His problem was making mistakes, like any other player. I don't think he made any more mistakes on the ball than anyone else, but my point is that if he's doing something he's not suited to or used to doing he is going to find it more difficult than the likes of Karacan or Legiertwood who are used to hooking blind passes over their shoulders for 90 minutes having played in this team for much longer.

[Elm Park Pasty]

I am kind of at the point now where I want to fast forward to pre-season. This season is over and I want the excitement to start again for what could be a positive season in the Championship.

[Extended-Phenotype]

It wouldn’t be fair to say that every mistake Guthrie made was Brian’s fault.

It might be fair to say that some of his weaker performances under Brian were down to what he was asked to do, the style of play McD had us playing and being regularly dropped without a fair run in the side that other players (performing equally as badly or worse) were afforded.

That's fair (to continue the fair theme), although lest we forget this is a player who outright refused to play for the club. My sympathies with regard to him not getting a fair run in the side are mitigated by his shit attitude.

I like the fair theme, and what you say is fair.

It doesn't justify it in anyway, but his refusal to play stems from his unfair treatment; in my mind both the player and manager are responsible for the breakdown in relationship which lead to that error in judgement. Perhaps if we were spoilt for midfielders I wouldn't have been so desperate to draw a line under it and move on.

Regardless of "shoveitupyourarsegate", a bit more experience and nous in the manager might have seen more perseverance in a player who could have improved our season.

[Maguire]

I hate to say it, but that is absolutely fair.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Fair play.

[melonhead]

It should also be pointed out that Guthrie was playing in an unnatural pasition under Brian, whereas he's now sitting much deeper in Nigel's team.

Brian isn't solely to blame, obviously, but given the manager's job is to get the best out of the players at his disposal, and given that Danny is one our highest earners and also one of our more talented players, the finger should certainly be pointed at him to a certain extent.

Who cares though? The future's looking bright, so let's all revel in this upturn in form before the ineveitable spanking by City next week.

oh yeah, absolutely.

im not saying brian isnt responsible for the reactions/attitude of all th eplayers he buys and selects and coaches and instructs. its his man management skills and tactical abilities, which is a most of his job.
im saying i cannot extend this all the way out to brian was responsible for guthrie refusing to play.
only guthrie holds that responsibility. i just dont think peple should allow players THAT much leeway when considering their actions etc

[melonhead]

Well to a reasonable part that was McDermotts fault.

He's the one who was asking them to play a certain way which playing a lot of a type of ball (longer and quicker) which means it was against Guthries normal instinct and more prone to going wrong (as in a lump down the channel or longer ball into the corner is more likely to lead to a 50/50 or go out of play).

If you can't understand how doing something un-natural leads to a player getting more things wrong then there isn't a lot of point carrying on the conversation.

lol at you getting all uppity about it.lol at being unable to understand. lol at you.
frankly couldnt care less if you carry on or not.

im aware that brian asked guthrie to play in different ways to what he was used to.(in a very early knee jerk response to losing games with guthrie playing in his normal role)

but he is a proffesional footballer. its his job to follow instructions layed out by whoever his manager is, at whatever club. and refusing to play makes him a oxf*rd. the end. no argument.
at no point have i suggested that he did this in response to nothing at all. of course it was in response to brian. im simply saying thats no excuse. the be all and end all for me is that he refused to play.
yes brian takes responsibility for man managing him to that response. but LOL at seriouslybacking guthrie up on that in any way.

I'm not getting uppity about it, I just can't be bothered to explain it over and over again when you're obviously not interested in the reality because of Guthrie's off the field issues (which I'm not defending).

I do think McDermotts handling of the player contributed to him not travelling to Sunderland but in now way does that excuse him throwing his toys out (I did make a point at the time about his mental health may have contributed to it, and that isn't something that should be ignored though).

You seem to be missing the point that Guthrie was following instructions and trying to play to the team pattern. His problem was making mistakes, like any other player. I don't think he made any more mistakes on the ball than anyone else, but my point is that if he's doing something he's not suited to or used to doing he is going to find it more difficult than the likes of Karacan or Legiertwood who are used to hooking blind passes over their shoulders for 90 minutes having played in this team for much longer.

of course im interested.
in no way am i dismissing guthrie as a player. i like him, think hes very decent, and played correctly could have been the difference this season.
if im overly negative its more to do with the crushing realisation that he hasnt lived up to my expectations, than hating him cos he refused to play.

the reality is hes played much better in a system more suited to his play, and has begun to look the player that may have kept us up.
which only adds to the disappointment.

its not that im saying guthrie cannot be forgiven for what he did, i forgave him as sson as he and brian made up and he played after coming back from injury, or "injury" depending on your view.
what i am saying is simply that while brian takes a share of blame for guthrie misfiring, and guthrie being unhappy, i firmly believe the only person that can/should be responsible for his daft reaction is himself.
that applies with or without his mental issues.which i agree are an important aspect of the whole thing

[winchester_royal]

I think Guthrie's got off incredibly lightly in terms of fan abuse. Though tbf that may be because whenever he's on the pitch you can never accuse him of lacking effort or desire, even if you may question his 'attitude' when things go against him.

His little spat seemed to come at a time where the team was in its worsr spell of form and was crying out for change from the stock selection of Leigertwood and Tabb/Karacan..so perhaps the fans sympathised with his frustrations a little because in different circumstances I don't think he'd have been let back into the fold quite so easily.

[Sanguine]

the reality is hes played much better in a system more suited to his play, and has begun to look the player that may have kept us up.

That’s why it is important that managers strike a fine balance when dealing with ‘problem’ characters like Guthrie.

Earlier in the season you wouldn’t have much of it when some suggested we play a system to Guthrie’s strengths. Adkins has done exactly that from the word go and we are seeing the benefits.

No McDermott's 'fault', that lies with the reaction of the player, but Brian might have done more to 'manage' him for the team's benefit.

[St. Brynjar]

I loved the chants at the Sheffield United game, "He play when he wants, he's plays when he waaaants, he's Danny Guthrie, he plays when he wants", and I remember him smirking. I think he's starting to enjoy being a Reading player and a season in teh Championship cementing his place as a starter will only help his case if he ever wants to be in an England squad.