Fans Forum

[Royal Lady]

Never heard Seb called that before

If Tennent's Super's comments were aimed at me - you couldn't be more wrong. I'm perfectly capable of dealing directly with the club if it's necessary - but rather than individuals contacting the club with concerns/questions etc, I just offered to collate such things and pass them onto STAR once a month, or whatever, and then report back to the individual(s) concerned. I was offering on behalf of other fans. This is not being self-important, just offering a service. I also said I'd do it, if no-one else fancied doing it. I'd be more than happy for someone else to do it but STAR wouldn't entertain such an idea anyway. If this comment wasn't aimed at me, jolly good!

[Para Handy]

Less stupid than people continually suggesting that joining and changing from within is only option. Would you do that with EDL? PETA? UKIP? etc I would suggest cranking up the intelligence level of your posts before throwing that one tbf..

What would you suggest then? Your analogy is still stupid but I can see you felt the need to ride to your m8's rescue rather than enter into a proper deb8. TBH, I don't really care enough about STAR or the people whinging about them to worry about it much. So, changing from within is not an option according to you. Joining STAR so they can represent you is not an option. What do you feel you can do. I'm interested*. To be fair to STAR they can't do much about changing things if they're not told about what's concerning the fanbase. I'm not sure a few randoms whinging on HNA about not being consulted or informed about stuff an organisation is doing that they're not a member of, or are are openly abusive about, constitutes either valid criticism or an appropriate approach to actually to actually get them to listen.

*Not really

[creative_username_1]

'greed

[Bandini]

Didn't I offer to be a sort of go-between between STAR and HNA - where I could wheedle out the fishermen/wind up merchants and put any proper criticisms/concerns etc to STAR on their behalf etc and didn't STAR REFUSE to deal with anyone from HNA - despite some of STAR's own members also being on HNA?

[Cypry]

The thing is, it's a bit chicken and egg isn't it?

STAR do offer their members the opportunity to raise concerns with the club - in their latest mail sent out on Monday with the notes from the Fans Forum (yes, it took them less than a week to circulate the notes - seems like they're listening to previous criticism), they highlight that the next meeting with the club is on 14th August and give the mail address to contact if you wish them to raise these concerns with the club? Isn't that exactly what people seem to be asking for? That STAR give the opportunity for concerns to be raised? to be honest, I completely agree with STAR that there's no need for a self elected HNA representative to filter, and sumarise questions, after all it's not hard for anyone who has an issue to join STAR and raise the question themselves through their channels - I'd suggest that if they can't be bothered to do that, then it's not really a burning issue

Do they "cosy up to the club" as they're so often accused of? Possibly to some degree, but without that the club would probably simply pull the shutters up.You can download the minutes of their meetings with the club freely from their website, and they do ask the club questions on behalf of their members/supporters, the latest minutes include questions with reference to ticket pricing, allocation, the academy, away supports coach parking among others. It's a fine line they run between maintaining a good working relationship with the club and asking difficult questions....

It's all very well to be all militant and want to "infiltrate" STAR, but to be quite honest, it seems like a lot of bluster and hot air with no substance - surely anyone with an ounce of intelligence recognises the fine line that STAR have to tread.

So, do you sit outside of STAR, moan about them, or join and help to make the organisation run in a way which works better for all fans - the more fans that join, the bigger their clout will be with the club, you can't have it both ways, can you? At the end of the day, it's a tenner, which is bugger all in this day and age. It seems to me that this is some peoples biggest issue with STAR - why should I pay a tenner? Well, it's just a bit more than a couple of pints, less than a pound a month - to be honest if people have an issue with that, then they're calling that as an issue simply for the sake of having something to beat STAR up about - I had my issues with their approach to me after the Fans Forum last year, but that's done and dusted now, and FWIW I think STAR do a pretty good job of managing their relationship with the club.

[Hoop Blah]

Less stupid than people continually suggesting that joining and changing from within is only option. Would you do that with EDL? PETA? UKIP? etc I would suggest cranking up the intelligence level of your posts before throwing that one tbf..

What would you suggest then? Your analogy is still stupid but I can see you felt the need to ride to your m8's rescue rather than enter into a proper deb8. TBH, I don't really care enough about STAR or the people whinging about them to worry about it much. So, changing from within is not an option according to you. Joining STAR so they can represent you is not an option. What do you feel you can do. I'm interested*. To be fair to STAR they can't do much about changing things if they're not told about what's concerning the fanbase. I'm not sure a few randoms whinging on HNA about not being consulted or informed about stuff an organisation is doing that they're not a member of, or are are openly abusive about, constitutes either valid criticism or an appropriate approach to actually to actually get them to listen.

*Not really

As you seem to have missed, it is a stated aim of STAR to be working to represent the wider fan base on all issues. It also states that it's aim is to encourage better community integration with the club and that it's interests are represented in the running of the football club.

How can they do that properly if they don't go out to the wider fan base or the local community to canvass opinion and find out what those interests are. That is a failing of STAR as I've not been contacted by them for donkeys years despite being an ex-STAR member, a STH and someone involved in the local community.

[Croydon Royal]

Excellent post Cypry, and agree with the points being made. I think STAR do a decent job in certain areas and you've outlined their positioning and objectives well. But what I would say is all the criticism first came about because STAR failed in two areas following the last fans forum:

1) The digital/social media age. STAR seemed to be on the back foot here in not realising (accepting?) that the digital age and the emergence of Twitter/Facebook means that information - secret or otherwise - can and indeed will get out. Of course an awful lot of crap also gets out online, but in between all the WUM and bluster you do get information revealed that is of interest, such is the case of what the Reading FC manager says at a Fans Forum. The problem lay last time not only in poorly educating people in not doing this (at least, not enough, as the person who did reveal all genuinely didn't seem like he was doing it as an act of rebellion, more not realising he couldn't), but by STAR not getting themselves into a position so that they could act first in a digital age. I pay my £10 for STAR but as I work in London I rarely ever make the Fans Forum. In a pre-digital age a monthly newsletter would have been sufficient, but in the social media era I expect my information almost immediately - anything said last week is old news. STAR should have been in a position to report this online (through emails/gated websites etc) ASAP after the event. If they did that, I don't think any other STAR members would see the need to take it upon themselves to reveal the information online, and I don't think that non-STAR members would have any credence in demanding it. It's good to see that STAR are learning from this by releasing the latest notes on Monday, although I still don't think it goes far enough - I understand about time constraints and the demands of a volunteering role but still think you can find someone to do it even quicker - hell, I even offered after the last event to do such a thing, I'm a journalist and would have happily written it up that night so that Reading fans unable to attend could have had the copy the following morning, before they'd even logged on to HobNob, let alone had reason to complain about missing out. The fact is that football is under the spotlight 24/7 now, and if you want to be seen as the main organisation representing a diverse, tech-savvy and active fanbase then you need to have a strategy and ability to interact and be where they are - i.e. on social media and online.

2) More specifically, the other big problem caused was their crisis management. The guy who posted seemed genuinely apologetic at what he did and didn't realise how 'seriously' STAR took the Fan Forum. Fair enough. But STAR appeared to react in an over the top and overly authoritative way that came across as arrogant, self-serving and misplaced. Instead it reinforced a stereotype that the organisation is only there for jobsworths who want to build their egos and do stuff for the cliquey 200 people that get on the coach every other week. And with this approach how else are they ever going to attract new fans, particularly younger ones who understand how best to exploit my first point above? The stated aim of "encouraging better community integration with the club and that it's interests are represented in the running of the football club" will also have more chance of succeeding this way too.

Just my observations anyway. I'm a member of STAR, if nothing else because for £10 I feel I 'should' be a member of the Supporters Club of the team I follow. I get the Royalty Points and have used the coach on occasion when I can't afford an £80 train ticket but can afford a £20 coach to a game. There's plenty more STAR can do and I'd love to help, but don't feel I'd be able to (or even particularly enjoy doing so) until it rids itself of the cliquey and holier than thou attitude that it really does posses. But just as much, there's also a lot of criticism on here about their relationship with the club that I believe is a bit unwarranted, mainly by people who want to have their cake and eat it too.

[Cypry]

Excellent post Cypry, and agree with the points being made. I think STAR do a decent job in certain areas and you've outlined their positioning and objectives well. But what I would say is all the criticism first came about because STAR failed in two areas following the last fans forum:

1) The digital/social media age. STAR seemed to be on the back foot here in not realising (accepting?) that the digital age and the emergence of Twitter/Facebook means that information - secret or otherwise - can and indeed will get out. Of course an awful lot of crap also gets out online, but in between all the WUM and bluster you do get information revealed that is of interest, such is the case of what the Reading FC manager says at a Fans Forum. The problem lay last time not only in poorly educating people in not doing this (at least, not enough, as the person who did reveal all genuinely didn't seem like he was doing it as an act of rebellion, more not realising he couldn't), but by STAR not getting themselves into a position so that they could act first in a digital age. I pay my £10 for STAR but as I work in London I rarely ever make the Fans Forum. In a pre-digital age a monthly newsletter would have been sufficient, but in the social media era I expect my information almost immediately - anything said last week is old news. STAR should have been in a position to report this online (through emails/gated websites etc) ASAP after the event. If they did that, I don't think any other STAR members would see the need to take it upon themselves to reveal the information online, and I don't think that non-STAR members would have any credence in demanding it. It's good to see that STAR are learning from this by releasing the latest notes on Monday, although I still don't think it goes far enough - I understand about time constraints and the demands of a volunteering role but still think you can find someone to do it even quicker - hell, I even offered after the last event to do such a thing, I'm a journalist and would have happily written it up that night so that Reading fans unable to attend could have had the copy the following morning, before they'd even logged on to HobNob, let alone had reason to complain about missing out. The fact is that football is under the spotlight 24/7 now, and if you want to be seen as the main organisation representing a diverse, tech-savvy and active fanbase then you need to have a strategy and ability to interact and be where they are - i.e. on social media and online.

2) More specifically, the other big problem caused was their crisis management. The guy who posted seemed genuinely apologetic at what he did and didn't realise how 'seriously' STAR took the Fan Forum. Fair enough. But STAR appeared to react in an over the top and overly authoritative way that came across as arrogant, self-serving and misplaced. Instead it reinforced a stereotype that the organisation is only there for jobsworths who want to build their egos and do stuff for the cliquey 200 people that get on the coach every other week. And with this approach how else are they ever going to attract new fans, particularly younger ones who understand how best to exploit my first point above? The stated aim of "encouraging better community integration with the club and that it's interests are represented in the running of the football club" will also have more chance of succeeding this way too.

Just my observations anyway. I'm a member of STAR, if nothing else because for £10 I feel I 'should' be a member of the Supporters Club of the team I follow. I get the Royalty Points and have used the coach on occasion when I can't afford an £80 train ticket but can afford a £20 coach to a game. There's plenty more STAR can do and I'd love to help, but don't feel I'd be able to (or even particularly enjoy doing so) until it rids itself of the cliquey and holier than thou attitude that it really does posses. But just as much, there's also a lot of criticism on here about their relationship with the club that I believe is a bit unwarranted, mainly by people who want to have their cake and eat it too.

Just for clarity, it was me who posted the summary of the Forum last year, and I genuinely didn't know it would cause a problem....

[Alexander Litvinenko]

Good post Croydon Royal.

This comes back to the point I made yesterday that there are so few people "running" STAR, and I'm not sure they "get" Internet 2.0 and social media. I think it certainly is a mistake to not interact with HNA in any way whatsoever, but then again the number of trolls, WUMs and attention-seekers on HNA don't make that easy - it's virtually a a full-time job. So again, with so few people doing everything, why should they spread themselves so thin?

I personally don't have a problem with STAR's policy that they'll take anything to the club as long as they're contacted directly (by email) by whoever is raising the concern - ensuring that they're acting on behalf of a real person, rather than someone behind an anonymous ID, doesn't seem too much to ask to me.

Regarding the FF last year, I'm completely sure it was a genuine cock-up - STAR forgot to inform people about the "terms of reference - Chatham House Rules" for the event. But the problem came when Cypry posted in good faith, and STAR then completely buggered up the response to it and subsequent damage limitation - almost an object lesson in how *not* to communicate with people over social media. It was handled really badly, but it was a genuine cock-up, rather than the "control -freakery conspiracy" that many on here would so love it to be.

[Ian Royal]

Great post croydon.


I'll just add that the hypocrisy of coming on here to publicise the forum and ask for questions that peple want to know the answers to, then refusing to say what happened and throwing a flid when someone else did is what really got me pissed off. Along wiyh the complete refusal to accept any criticism over it and instead just refuse to interact with hna anymoe.

[Fox Talbot]

Good and well-reasoned posts from both Cypry and Croydon Royal.

It is a FINE LINE between representing members and 'being captured' by the people you're representing them to. It's why, I think, supporter-directors have never really caught on. It may also be why STAR board members tenure in office is time-limited - they have to step down at a certain point.

Two other points of information:

- in the last century I seem to remember the supporters club got the fans forum notes out the next day!
- STAR £10 entry fee has remained unchanged for about 10 years - what else in football is still the same price it was in 2003?

[Fox Talbot]

I personally don't have a problem with STAR's policy that they'll take anything to the club as long as they're contacted directly (by email) by whoever is raising the concern - ensuring that they're acting on behalf of a real person, rather than someone behind an anonymous ID, doesn't seem too much to ask to me.

Good point, I agree.

[Hoop Blah]

I personally don't have a problem with STAR's policy that they'll take anything to the club as long as they're contacted directly (by email) by whoever is raising the concern - ensuring that they're acting on behalf of a real person, rather than someone behind an anonymous ID, doesn't seem too much to ask to me.

Good point, I agree.

I agree, although it really does depend on the topic.

If it's something specific like a heavy handed or jobsworth steward ruining a match for a specific punter or something similar I totally agree. When it comes down to generic themes for discussion or annoyance with the way the club do things, eg the placement of an Ambulance, the use of loyalty points to segment ticket distribution, the general feeling of fans towards kit desings etc etc, then I think using any means of gathering information on fans opinions is valid. The challenge to that is that there are too many multiple accounts etc on here, but when the results are so clear or the debate is informed and intelligent it's quite clear how the land lies.

I'm aware some of the above are things STAR have taken up, with varying degrees of success, but it's the lack of communication and proactive interaction with their key audience (Reading fans who aren't STAR members) that just makes me see STAR as the cliquey travel club who like to get close to the club to make them feel important.

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Why cant individuals just fire a email of comment off to the club, if enough people care to do this I am sure the club will take notice and make improvements.
You dont need to be a member of STAR to make a comment, as RL showed re the ambulance thing.

[Royal Lady]

Why cant individuals just fire a email of comment off to the club, if enough people care to do this I am sure the club will take notice and make improvements.
You dont need to be a member of STAR to make a comment, as RL showed re the ambulance thing.

I just thought the club would get the arse if they had 25 complaints all about the same thing coming in to them via phone, email or whatever. So it would have been easier for someone to collate these numbers and approach the club saying, 25 supporters have all complained/asked for etc etc. If non STAR members contacted STAR about issues, would STAR deal with it on their behalf? Genuine question - not fishing or wanting to cause a row. Because if they WILL do this, then might as well contact STAR on our behalf if we have something we want to say.

[Alexander Litvinenko]

.... If non STAR members contacted STAR about issues, would STAR deal with it on their behalf? Genuine question - not fishing or wanting to cause a row. Because if they WILL do this, then might as well contact STAR on our behalf if we have something we want to say.

Absolutely, yes. Because what benefits one supporter is likely to benefit all of them, including both members and non-members. Or that's how it used to be.

But most people cba to follow-up - posting about it on here is the most effort that most (not all!) people will make when something upsets them

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

I still dont get it, if I see something i dont like at a shop etc I just comment, I dont need to be part of a group, it is up to the folk i comment to to decide if they need want to do anything regarding my comment.

FWIW Lidl in Woodley dont sell polish, like Mr Sheen, so I commented, got a reply, who knows, they may decide it is an oversight, would it make any difference if was a group of thirty shoppers sending the comment together.

FWIW I did post bac on the ambulance thing, from when the police used to bloke the exit from EP, I commented to the club and the police at the time, and it stopped happening, most probably said a few words in anger then forgot about it.

[Hoop Blah]

I've taken issue with the club on a few topics over the last few years and had some interesting chats with the likes of Boyd Butler and Craig Mortimer.

Yes they'll take on board comments but STAR or the supporters club as it used to be should, like a union, have more clout than just a few individuals picking up the phone or dropping an email to the powers that be at the club. That's the whole point of an organisation to represent the voice of the fans afterall isn't it?

[Harpers So Solid Crew]

Only if the fans bother to tell STAR what is annoying them though, and not an annonymous comment on here.

[Hoop Blah]

As above, I'd agree for specific incidents, but for generic issues then STAR should have a way and a means of knowing how the general fan base feel about issues and be able to take them up without X number of complaints being received.

Take as an example the use of the royalty points for ticket allocations for the City cup game a year or so ago. That didn't need individuals complaining because it was an obvious cock up.