Racism in football (John Terry spin-off)

[Ouroboros]

A quick, crude count of managers in the top two divisions tells me that 16 of the 44 jobs are taken by BME managers/coaches. That is 36.36% of the available jobs. How does that compare to the headcount in the UK, are around 1 in 3 citizens of the UK from BME background I genuinely don't know, because I don't spend my time wringing my hands and apologising over such inconsequential things.

So what's your message hear Floyd? I can't make it out through the sarcasm.

Are you saying that Arsene Wenger still cheating a living shows that people don't discriminate against black people?

[P!ssed Off]

not getting all Kes on you but if you are claiming Hughton as black and having a UEFA pro license then I am claiming Ryan Giggs too. He got his license earlier this year

tbf it was the BBC that claimed Hughton was 'black' and I was merely trying to work out who the other 13 qualified "black coaches" were.

I doubt the BBC were including Giggs on their '14 black coaches' list.
Eddie Newton and Paul Williams are likely 2 of the BBC's list of 14, I'd forgotten about them. Think I'm still missing a couple of people though.

[floyd__streete]

So what's your message hear Floyd? I can't make it out through the sarcasm.

Are you saying that Arsene Wenger still cheating a living shows that people don't discriminate against black people?

My message is that I am concerned about how few Welsh managers there are among the 92 Premier & Football League clubs

[Ouroboros]

Really? How many are there?

[floyd__streete]

No one cares. Perhaps if they went all Al Jolson on us then the full force of passive-aggressive liberal agenda will be unleashed

[Ouroboros]

I suppose the difference between you and everyone else, Floyd, is that we go along with the notion that sometimes black people get a raw deal. There's quite a lot of evidence for this, actually, but that won't impress you.

So when someone says "there aren't many black football managers around - I wonder whether that's that racism problem again" we don't go "yeah, but the welsh aren't complaining. Checkmate."

I think your problem is that it's hard to resolve on the one hand a sense that the world is awfully far from being made to your full satisfaction, and on the other hand the reality that you've got it easy.

[Extended-Phenotype]

The reality is Floyd is one of those weird blokes who is getting disproportionately upset about people looking to identify if there is a problem or not.

No idea what he is scared of finding out.

[floyd__streete]

Lets just thank God/Allah/Vishnu that we have Extended Phenotype and Ouroboros to save the world with their brand of positive discrimination

[floyd__streete]

The reality is Floyd is one of those weird blokes who is getting disproportionately upset about people looking to identify if there is a problem or not.

Floyd is weird, says the man who - clearly bored - regularly looks for a rise from perfect strangers on the internet

[Ouroboros]

Lets just thank God/Allah/Vishnu that we have Extended Phenotype and Ouroboros to save the world with their brand of positive discrimination

First time anyone's mentioned positive discrimination, Floyd. Just saying it's worth our effort to ensure a level playing field.

Everything you post sounds like "I'm alright Jack" to me.

[floyd__streete]

No, lets have an investigation into it

"John Madejski, you've never appointed a black manager. You racist or something?"

"No!"

"Ah.....ok. Damn. Erm, right. We demand to see the interview scoring from your last recruitment process "

Lack of black managers in the game? At worst, just as painful/frustrating an experience as a young person seeing those four words 'must have relevant experience' on a job spec. Can we have a Rooney rule whereby every private employer must consider a 16 year old for the post they are applying for

[floyd__streete]

a Rooney rule whereby every private employer must consider a 16 year old for the post they are advertising even.

Can't find the 'edit' button on this rather gash upgrade to Hob Nob And I am a fully confessed luddite.

That said, no-one has ever given me the chance to be CEO of Microsoft.....

[Sanguine]

Can we have a Rooney rule whereby every private employer must consider a 16 year old for the post they are applying for

I don't know, do 16 year olds of identical skills and experience to older candidates find themselves unfairly discriminated against in the job market?

[floyd__streete]

MUST
HAVE
RELEVANT
EXPERIENCE

[Ouroboros]

Yes Floyd, I'd love to live in a world like that too.


You're an idealist. I respect that at least.


Seems like the reality is that discrimination exists though, and it's not going to any good wishing it didn't.

[floyd__streete]

How do you know it exists? You assume it exists. These sort of pre-determined attitudes makes a mockey of any campaign for inclusivity. It puts pressure on any investigation to find in a certain way.

No-one would have an issue with an investigation into the lack of representation of BME coaches in football management roles. Who undertakes the investigation? How do they investigate? What evidence exactly are they evaluating? How open do we intend to be with the findings? You’ve got to have governance as soon as you say ‘SOMETHING MUST BE DONE’! The most obvious way would be to be to interview all UEFA/FIFA licenced BME coaches, ask what evidence they have of discrimination (in general terms and in terms of employment). Of course, much of that evidence could be supposition and hearsay but it would be good to break down some barriers.

Now it gets trickier. Resulting from any investigation, how do we go about implementing any proposals? Who pays for it? Cash strapped League 2 clubs shelling out to ensure a box ticking exercise is completed? Do we get set targets? Say 15 BME managers in post in top jobs within the 92 clubs by 2018? We already have that of course. Oh, sorry I mean 15 managers with black skin. What a shame, we reached our target by December 2018 but by March 2019 2 had been sacked. This in itself must be investigated!

These reservations alone are no reason not to have some sort of investigation into it of course, as long as there is no pre-determined barely-concealed attitude at the outset that (to quote you) the reality is that discrimination exists. Football is different to any other industry, there are no promotion boards or KPIs. It would be good to get any blockages into coaching roles sorted....but it would be good to get those blockages sorted for every candidate, of course. What about the dyslexic who might get overlooked (Harry Redknapp is your Champion)? What about the very capable coach who gets overlooked because he is homosexual?

[Extended-Phenotype]

Folk: "Let's see if there is a problem and ensure things are fair for black people"
Pcunts: "OH RIGHT!??? YEAH, WHY DON'T WE ENSURE THINGS ARE FAIR FOR YOUNG PEOPLE OR WELSH PEOPLE OR GAYS WHILE WE ARE AT IT????!!?"
Folk: "Yeah alright. Let's."
Pcunts: "%&?!$!!"

[Ouroboros]

Floyd.

I googled this in literally 5 seconds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3885213.stm

And this:

http://www.theguardian.com/money/2009/o ... undercover

When I said that "it seems the reality is that discrimination exists" I mean that employers are often shown to be treating candidates differently based only on their race even though the candidates are fake and have ALL THE RELEVANT EXPERIENCE REQUIRED

Of course I'm with you that football has shown itself time and time again to be a bastion of racial-equality and modern liberal values, and that the people who run football clubs are amongst the most decent, forward-looking a fair people in the world.

However, there is still evidence that despite the large number of black people in the game (and yes, I'm going to carry on talking about black people, even though you still seem to think that Arsene Wenger is relevant to a debate about racial discrimination of black people), there aren't a proportionate amount ending up as managers of football clubs.

I agree there are lots of different reasons why this is the case, and many of them occur prior to a CV landing on the desk of a chairman. But yeah, I'm going to start with the assumption that black prospective managers have to overcome the unconscious racial discrimination of their prospective employer, because stacks of evidence say that's the way human beings are.

[Ouroboros]

FWIW, Floyd, I don't like the idea of targets, I don't like the idea of positive discrimination, I don't like the idea that someone has to foot the bill for investigating this and working out what to do about it, and I don't have the first fucking clue what's the best way to go about addressing the problem.

Only difference is that seeing the difficulties doesn't lead me to pretend there isn't a problem.

[No Fixed Abode]

FWIW, Floyd, I don't like the idea of targets, I don't like the idea of positive discrimination, I don't like the idea that someone has to foot the bill for investigating this and working out what to do about it, and I don't have the first fucking clue what's the best way to go about addressing the problem.

Only difference is that seeing the difficulties doesn't lead me to pretend there isn't a problem.

Will somebody launch an investigation as to why there are no MOWO awards?