Racism in football (John Terry spin-off)

[Ouroboros]

Only a total div

Hang on. You do understand who I've been arguing with, right?

Don't disagree with what you say there. Of course the more we know the better we're able to understand the phenomenon - and as I've said before I do agree that it's likely a lot of the causes are having their impact prior to the point of the CV landing on the chairman's desk.

I'm ambivalent at best about setting targets. I'm just in an argument against people that say the reason that you shouldn't be trying to do something about this problem is because there isn't a problem to solve.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Jesus Christ man, of course you would. Only a total div would argue there isn't racial discrimination in the workplace (I'll hold my hand up to have occasionally done it), but I absolutely do not believe it can be extrapolated to football.

???

Why is football so special?

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Jesus Christ man, of course you would. Only a total div would argue there isn't racial discrimination in the workplace (I'll hold my hand up to have occasionally done it), but I absolutely do not believe it can be extrapolated to football.

???

Why is football so special?

For one you have people going for jobs that have completely different education, experience & background, to manage a multi-million pound company with thousands of stakeholders staffed by a truly-multinational staff, which doesn't happen in a normal workplace. I want to know more about the candidates than to just assume that someone didn't get a job because they're black. All those examples of investigations into racism in the workplace are better controlled and cv's are matched for experience and education.

In football, the candidates are also well known by the recruiters, which doesn't happen in a normal workplace. This both makes the whole thing murkier, and also harder to understand the whys.

Just having the numbers of qualified badge holders who are able to get a job is still a simple place to start a conversation. I don wonder why it never gets mentioned in articles though. Is the UEFA licence data confidential or something?

[No Fixed Abode]

There aren't that many BME people doing coaching courses, so it's only natural that aren't that many in managerial positions.

Please then don't use this response "They don't bother doing it, because the chances of them getting a job at the end of it is minimal".

It's like me complaining I didn't get a job because I couldn't be arsed to do the relevant qualifications.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Jesus Christ man, of course you would. Only a total div would argue there isn't racial discrimination in the workplace (I'll hold my hand up to have occasionally done it), but I absolutely do not believe it can be extrapolated to football.

???

Why is football so special?

For one you have people going for jobs that have completely different education, experience & background, to manage a multi-million pound company with thousands of stakeholders staffed by a truly-multinational staff, which doesn't happen in a normal workplace. I want to know more about the candidates than to just assume that someone didn't get a job because they're black. All those examples of investigations into racism in the workplace are better controlled and cv's are matched for experience and education.

In football, the candidates are also well known by the recruiters, which doesn't happen in a normal workplace. This both makes the whole thing murkier, and also harder to understand the whys.

Just having the numbers of qualified badge holders who are able to get a job is still a simple place to start a conversation. I don wonder why it never gets mentioned in articles though. Is the UEFA licence data confidential or something?

Eh? You are saying that, because the job of a football manager is more valuable than jobs in other industries, people won’t be so cheap as to dismiss candidates on trivial factors like race or colour?

So what, black folk should stop wasting their time applying for racist low paid jobs at shoot for the top where they will be more likely given the equal chance they’ve been dreaming about?

[John Madejski's Wallet]

Eh? You are saying that, because the job of a football manager is more valuable than jobs in other industries, people won’t be so cheap as to dismiss candidates on trivial factors like race or colour?

So what, black folk should stop wasting their time applying for racist low paid jobs at shoot for the top where they will be more likely given the equal chance they’ve been dreaming about?

Eh? I now have no idea what you are wittering on about

[Extended-Phenotype]

It's like me complaining I didn't get a job because I couldn't be arsed to do the relevant qualifications.

Well, it isn't really is it? Unless you were say, abandoning doing teacher training because it is your belief that people are unlikely to hire those who fail the CRB check.

[No Fixed Abode]

I think the main point is, there WILL be more BME managers in the game in years to come.

The likes of Jason Roberts are just being overly controversial NOW to get attention and make a career for himself.

They had a MOTD FA Cup special on the BBC on Sunday. As soon as I saw Jason Roberts was one of the pundits, I couldn't watch. Not because of his ethnicity, but because he's shit. He mumbles and stumbles. I can think of many other better BME pundits - but why aren't they on there instead? The 'diverse' BBC wouldn't dare get rid of him for fear of being accused of racism'.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Eh? You are saying that, because the job of a football manager is more valuable than jobs in other industries, people won’t be so cheap as to dismiss candidates on trivial factors like race or colour?

So what, black folk should stop wasting their time applying for racist low paid jobs at shoot for the top where they will be more likely given the equal chance they’ve been dreaming about?

Eh? I now have no idea what you are wittering on about

You were saying that appointing a football manager is so important, that race/colour wouldn't factor like it could in other industries?

At least, that's what I thought you were saying?

[No Fixed Abode]

It's like me complaining I didn't get a job because I couldn't be arsed to do the relevant qualifications.

Well, it isn't really is it? .

Yes, yes it is.

[Extended-Phenotype]

It's like me complaining I didn't get a job because I couldn't be arsed to do the relevant qualifications.

Well, it isn't really is it? .

Yes, yes it is.

But it isn't. Like I explained.

In your example you aren't pursuing qualifications because you are (as you admit) lazy and can't be bothered. In the comparative scenario that you highlight, the person isn't being lazy, they are disillusioned and just don't think the qualifications will get them anywhere.

Not really similar at all.

[No Fixed Abode]

Yep - you see. It's that defeatist attitude - which is exactly why there is a lack of BME managers.

Maybe I shouldn't bother applying for a job in HR. After all, they'll likely give it to a woman.

[Extended-Phenotype]

Yep - you see. It's that defeatist attitude - which is exactly why there is a lack of BME managers.

Maybe I shouldn't bother applying for a job in HR. After all, they'll likely give it to a woman.

Not saying the attitude is right.
Or even the reason.

Just that it's not the same as being lazy. Few people do put themselves through stress and hardship if they aren't going to be fairly rewarded at the end of it. That's just human nature, sadly.

[No Fixed Abode]

Yep - you see. It's that defeatist attitude - which is exactly why there is a lack of BME managers.

Maybe I shouldn't bother applying for a job in HR. After all, they'll likely give it to a woman.

Not saying the attitude is right.
Or even the reason.

Just that it's not the same as being lazy. Few people do put themselves through stress and hardship if they aren't going to be fairly rewarded at the end of it. That's just human nature, sadly.

It is the same thing. It's laziness, regardless of what background you are.

What's that saying......Got to be in it to win it.........Don't try, don't get........

[Extended-Phenotype]

Yep - you see. It's that defeatist attitude - which is exactly why there is a lack of BME managers.

Maybe I shouldn't bother applying for a job in HR. After all, they'll likely give it to a woman.

Not saying the attitude is right.
Or even the reason.

Just that it's not the same as being lazy. Few people do put themselves through stress and hardship if they aren't going to be fairly rewarded at the end of it. That's just human nature, sadly.

It is the same thing. It's laziness, regardless of what background you are.

What's that saying......Got to be in it to win it.........Don't try, don't get........

I'd say laziness is purely an aversion to hard work. Not working at something because you see it as futile isn't the same thing.

An atheist not praying for God to heal a sick relative isn't an act of laziness. He just doesn't see any point and has better things to do with his time.

A farmer not performing a rain dance after he has planted his crops isn't declining because he is lazy. He just doesn't believe it will do any good and will be a complete waste of energy.

People have different reasons for not doing things. I thought this was pretty basic stuff, tbh.

[No Fixed Abode]

I thought it was basic stuff too EP.

If Black people don't do their coaching badges, they don't have a right to moan.

If I don't go and vote, I don't have a right to moan about this Country and the way it is run.

[Extended-Phenotype]

I thought it was basic stuff too EP.

If Black people don't do their coaching badges, they don't have a right to moan.

If I don't go and vote, I don't have a right to moan about this Country and the way it is run.

M8, totally agree - just saying it's not laziness.

For the record though, I'm not sure if the point here is 'people moaning about it.' I think the point is whether there is disillusionment and whether there is any substance to what that disillusionment is based on.

[tmesis]

If Black people don't do their coaching badges, they don't have a right to moan.
.

This is the stat we never seem to see - the number of qualified black coaches as a % of the total v the percentage employed.

My guess is that the figure is a lot lower than the number of black players in the game, but also considerably higher than the percentage of coaches employed.

[John Madejski's Wallet]

If Black people don't do their coaching badges, they don't have a right to moan.
.

This is the stat we never seem to see - the number of qualified black coaches as a % of the total v the percentage employed.

My guess is that the figure is a lot lower than the number of black players in the game, but also considerably higher than the percentage of coaches employed.

That's a safe bet.

Be nice if it was actually used. Then everyone has real cause to start asking why they only make up 0.5%** coaches, while there are 5%** with badges, rather than an unrelated stat of % players that just disengages many people from the conversation

**entirely invented figures obvs

[P!ssed Off]

If Black people don't do their coaching badges, they don't have a right to moan.
.

This is the stat we never seem to see - the number of qualified black coaches as a % of the total v the percentage employed.

My guess is that the figure is a lot lower than the number of black players in the game, but also considerably higher than the percentage of coaches employed.

Facts and figures
-The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
-There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England and 14 of those are black coaches
-Around 25% of players in the professional game are non-white
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29333826

As posted on this very thread, over a month ago.