England - the future....

[Sanguine]

Well, where did that come from?

Credit where it's due, one of our best performances in recent memory, and certainly our best away performance for a long time. Very, very good. Madueke always underwhelms me for Chelsea and now Arsenal - but just seems like an international player. Rogers fit in to the side very well too. And in Anderson and Wharton (when fit) we've got two very exciting central midfielders.

[Royal Rother]

Well, that was very good.

An England performance to enjoy!

Anderson is so good for the team - very impressive.

[From Despair To Where?]

There will of course be a clamour to bring Bellingham back but I think he disrupts the balance of the team.

Don't want to go overboard on one performance but of the big names that are missing, Saka is the only one I'd say walks straight back into the starting XI.

[stealthpapes]

BBC saying England need 5 points to be sure. No idea who’s correct.

lol.

[Royal Rother]

There will of course be a clamour to bring Bellingham back but I think he disrupts the balance of the team.

Agreed, and, good though he is, he's got far too much billy big bollocks attitude these days.

[stealthpapes]

At least [Serbia] should take the game to England so we might not get another round of “boreball”.

It's probably worth spending a moment of time on just how bad Serbia were. At times they had flat back six, just no intention in the first half to do anything constructive. A really flat and uninspired performance.

There's a fair bit going on in Serbia right now - riots throughout the year, sparked by the deaths of over a dozen when a railway station collapsed.

[WestYorksRoyal]

There will of course be a clamour to bring Bellingham back but I think he disrupts the balance of the team.

Don't want to go overboard on one performance but of the big names that are missing, Saka is the only one I'd say walks straight back into the starting XI.

Can Madueke play LW too? As I think he was great. I rate Gordon too. Just pick a genuine wide player and not Foden or Palmer drifting inside. Madueke or Gordon are fine, or Rashford if he does well at Barcelona. But agree Saka has the RW spot sewn up.

[From Despair To Where?]

There will of course be a clamour to bring Bellingham back but I think he disrupts the balance of the team.

Agreed, and, good though he is, he's got far too much billy big bollocks attitude these days.

To me it's the old Lampard/Scholes/ Gerrard conundrum again. How do you accommodate all three. Simple answer is you don't, you pick whoever best suits the system.

Going back even further, Glenn Hoddle. Undoubtedly a great player but how do you fit him into the system without oxf*rd it up?

Foden's been dreadfully out of form for 15 months and, for me, Palmer is way too inconsistent to be a regular starter.

I just think Rice brings more to the system than Bellingham and, as you say, doesn't bring the attitude with him.

[Royal Rother]

There will of course be a clamour to bring Bellingham back but I think he disrupts the balance of the team.

Agreed, and, good though he is, he's got far too much billy big bollocks attitude these days.

To me it's the old Lampard/Scholes/ Gerrard conundrum again. How do you accommodate all three. Simple answer is you don't, you pick whoever best suits the system.

Going back even further, Glenn Hoddle. Undoubtedly a great player but how do you fit him into the system without oxf*rd it up?

Foden's been dreadfully out of form for 15 months and, for me, Palmer is way too inconsistent to be a regular starter.

I just think Rice brings more to the system than Bellingham and, as you say, doesn't bring the attitude with him.

Kane is the conundrum for me.

Is playing him as someone who can score goals but is very very slow going to blunt our potential against the best teams? In my opinion it has and will continue to do so.

Lovely header to score yesterday of course, but that is the sort of goal Bellingham scores. I appreciate the latter is not a CF, but, despite not being a fan of the bloke, with goal potential from elsewhere, would we be a better unit with him as a false No 9 than Kane who is hardly playing as a proper CF now? Did he have a shot apart from the headed goal yesterday?

Probably too late to try it now, but I think Bellingham is capable of making runs that would create space for others in a way that Kane just can't, and might be better for the team as a whole.

Shoot me down.

[Sutekh]

Agreed, and, good though he is, he's got far too much billy big bollocks attitude these days.

To me it's the old Lampard/Scholes/ Gerrard conundrum again. How do you accommodate all three. Simple answer is you don't, you pick whoever best suits the system.

Going back even further, Glenn Hoddle. Undoubtedly a great player but how do you fit him into the system without oxf*rd it up?

Foden's been dreadfully out of form for 15 months and, for me, Palmer is way too inconsistent to be a regular starter.

I just think Rice brings more to the system than Bellingham and, as you say, doesn't bring the attitude with him.

Kane is the conundrum for me.

Is playing him as someone who can score goals but is very very slow going to blunt our potential against the best teams? In my opinion it has and will continue to do so.

Lovely header to score yesterday of course, but that is the sort of goal Bellingham scores. I appreciate the latter is not a CF, but, despite not being a fan of the bloke, with goal potential from elsewhere, would we be a better unit with him as a false No 9 than Kane who is hardly playing as a proper CF now? Did he have a shot apart from the headed goal yesterday?

Probably too late to try it now, but I think Bellingham is capable of making runs that would create space for others in a way that Kane just can't, and might be better for the team as a whole.

Shoot me down.

No, it's something that's worth a try. Is Bellingham likely to be playing again by the time the Wales games comes round in October?

[From Despair To Where?]

Agreed, and, good though he is, he's got far too much billy big bollocks attitude these days.

To me it's the old Lampard/Scholes/ Gerrard conundrum again. How do you accommodate all three. Simple answer is you don't, you pick whoever best suits the system.

Going back even further, Glenn Hoddle. Undoubtedly a great player but how do you fit him into the system without oxf*rd it up?

Foden's been dreadfully out of form for 15 months and, for me, Palmer is way too inconsistent to be a regular starter.

I just think Rice brings more to the system than Bellingham and, as you say, doesn't bring the attitude with him.

Kane is the conundrum for me.

Is playing him as someone who can score goals but is very very slow going to blunt our potential against the best teams? In my opinion it has and will continue to do so.

Lovely header to score yesterday of course, but that is the sort of goal Bellingham scores. I appreciate the latter is not a CF, but, despite not being a fan of the bloke, with goal potential from elsewhere, would we be a better unit with him as a false No 9 than Kane who is hardly playing as a proper CF now? Did he have a shot apart from the headed goal yesterday?

Probably too late to try it now, but I think Bellingham is capable of making runs that would create space for others in a way that Kane just can't, and might be better for the team as a whole.

Shoot me down.

I think it's a suggestion that has merit. Yes he's a dick but has undoubted quality and has a nack of scoring crucial goals, particularly in clutch situations, something that Kane hasn't done consistently enough IMO.

Kane's goalscoring form has also dropped off for England in the past 4 years. from 0.88 goals per game up to 2021 to 0.61 since 2022.

[Winston Biscuit]

Kane's goalscoring form has also dropped off for England in the past 4 years. from 0.88 goals per game up to 2021 to 0.61 since 2022.

isn't that just a particularly good 2021 skewing that?

[stealthpapes]

Just eyeballing the data, I don't think that statistic is correct.

Had a quick look/play.

At the end of 2021, he had played 67 England games and scored 48 goals, for a ratio of 0.72.
After the game last night, it is 109 games and 74 goals, for a ratio of 0.68. From 2022 to 2025 inclusive, it's 0.62.
Down 0.1 goal a game means that in 10 games he'll score 1 less - that's maybe not something you'd notice over a qualifying period.

This (admittedly brief, admittedly simplistic) analysis does round games up i.e. doesn't count substitute appearances as fractional. But that would only raise the rates, wouldn't it?

It could be 'ignoring friendlies' but his goals do seem to come quite often in competitive games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... Harry_Kane

While he's still scoring, I think he's got to be in/around the squad and you use the wide players and attacking midfield to support his strengths.

[stealthpapes]

Kane's goalscoring form has also dropped off for England in the past 4 years. from 0.88 goals per game up to 2021 to 0.61 since 2022.

isn't that just a particularly good 2021 skewing that?

2019 was better.

[WestYorksRoyal]

Just eyeballing the data, I don't think that statistic is correct.

Had a quick look/play.

At the end of 2021, he had played 67 England games and scored 48 goals, for a ratio of 0.72.
After the game last night, it is 109 games and 74 goals, for a ratio of 0.68. From 2022 to 2025 inclusive, it's 0.62.
Down 0.1 goal a game means that in 10 games he'll score 1 less - that's maybe not something you'd notice over a qualifying period.

This (admittedly brief, admittedly simplistic) analysis does round games up i.e. doesn't count substitute appearances as fractional. But that would only raise the rates, wouldn't it?

It could be 'ignoring friendlies' but his goals do seem to come quite often in competitive games.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_i ... Harry_Kane

While he's still scoring, I think he's got to be in/around the squad and you use the wide players and attacking midfield to support his strengths.

I think last night's team was ideal for him. Runners from Gordon, Madueke and Rogers, even Rice had licence to roam. This created space for him to drop into and create. That being said, he was hardly a top performer, but he looked decent enough and got a goal.

His worst games are when we pack the team with no.10s with no willing runners in behind, and he looks completely ineffective.

[From Despair To Where?]

Kane's goalscoring form has also dropped off for England in the past 4 years. from 0.88 goals per game up to 2021 to 0.61 since 2022.

isn't that just a particularly good 2021 skewing that?

2019 was better.

...and 2023 was as good as 2021.

Yeah, I realise I miscalculated the figure so retract it slightly but he's not getting any younger. To me, Ollie Watkins seems the most proficient successor but he's 29 which I think adds more credence to RR's suggestion of playing Bellingham as a false 9.

[Sanguine]

Kane's goalscoring form has also dropped off for England in the past 4 years. from 0.88 goals per game up to 2021 to 0.61 since 2022.

isn't that just a particularly good 2021 skewing that?

Yes.

Not sure what FDTW's agenda is here, if any. But the suggestion that Kane's form has 'dropped off' is a little silly. He had 32 goals in 51 caps up to the end of 2020, 0.63 goals per game. It is 26 goals in 42 games since the start of 2022, 0.62 goals per game. He had a brilliant 2021, but otherwise has maintained a pretty steady ratio through his career.

[From Despair To Where?]

I don't have any agenda, I looked at the figures which seemed to show a drop off in form but realised I miscalculated when papes pointed it out and put my hands up to making an error.

However, he is 32, the rest of the squad is relatively young and should be around for the next 6-8 years so England need to be considering a succession plan for him. Rother suggesting Bellingham as a potential false 9 prompted me to look at Kane's record in the first place as there doesn't seem to be many young English No9s crying out to be selected.

[Winston Biscuit]

maybe it was the high standard he set when he first joined RM which he never kept up, added to the perceived attitude, but like a lot of others I think Bellingham really rubs me up the wrong way these days.

[Royal Rother]

I don't have any agenda, I looked at the figures which seemed to show a drop off in form but realised I miscalculated when papes pointed it out and put my hands up to making an error.

However, he is 32, the rest of the squad is relatively young and should be around for the next 6-8 years so England need to be considering a succession plan for him. Rother suggesting Bellingham as a potential false 9 prompted me to look at Kane's record in the first place as there doesn't seem to be many young English No9s crying out to be selected.

And that's the really big problem. There aren't ANY.

It's undeniable that Kane is a great finisher, but he is so slow, and getting slower. It's pointless playing the ball over the top for him or giving him anything to run onto as he is going to get caught every time, so that restricts what we can do.

There's lots of pace everywhere else in the attack but they can't play the ball in as quickly as they might otherwise do because Kane probably won't be there at the split second of maximum opportunity. I know it seems to be the modern way for wide players to stop and check back more often than not, but I do wonder whether, in England's case particularly that is in part because Kane is not able to make lung-busting runs into the box.

Seeing as there aren't any young No 9s coming through yet, maybe we have to stick with Kane for now as he WILL score goals, I just feel it restricts us from capitalising on some of our strengths, and yes, MAYBE Bellingham, who we know has a lot to offer wherever he plays, could be an answer. He probably wouldn't score some of the goals that Kane would, but he'd certainly score some, and maybe help the team score more overall, most importantly at crucial times, because of his pace and strength.

Whatever, there needs to be A plan because good defenders are closing Kane down more and more before he can get a shot off and that's only going to happen more.