MATCHWATCH : Derby County (a) sponsored by first half away goal search

[Hound]

The media have papers to sell/clicks to generate so don’t really blame them

Always though that the reactions on here were more extreme than the majority of fans and his reception before the game at Forest showed that

Still Stam did need to make a few tweaks and tbf I think he did. It was more of us using the blueprint of the Leeds win, and I think had Dadi not got injured we’d have beaten Boro or Sheff Utd as well

[Oilroyal]

Thanks lads, made my weekend. Great result.

I'm a RTG of course but some of the comments about Stam and the team have been a disgrace.

Reassuringly all clubs have fans like that.

TBF most fans were prepared to give Stam until December to sort things out even though up until the last 3 games he was offering zero football entertainment (except Villa) and a low point return. He was also being a stubborn prick and he’d publicly pissed a lot of fans off.
Fans were right to be calling for change. The pressure placed on Stam by fans had a positive impact on the team, the proof being recent results. Nothing wrong with fans saying it how it is, and wanting better than the turd that was being offered at the time. But there’s plenty wrong with fans just suffering in silence, then adding a “told you so” when things come good.

Let’s hope Jaap’s gained experience from this and we’ve now had our bad patch this season. If so, then I can only see us moving up the table in some style.

Think you need to look up the words causation and correlation tbh buddy.

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

[RoyalBlue]

TBF most fans were prepared to give Stam until December to sort things out even though up until the last 3 games he was offering zero football entertainment (except Villa) and a low point return. He was also being a stubborn prick and he’d publicly pissed a lot of fans off.
Fans were right to be calling for change. The pressure placed on Stam by fans had a positive impact on the team, the proof being recent results. Nothing wrong with fans saying it how it is, and wanting better than the turd that was being offered at the time. But there’s plenty wrong with fans just suffering in silence, then adding a “told you so” when things come good.

Let’s hope Jaap’s gained experience from this and we’ve now had our bad patch this season. If so, then I can only see us moving up the table in some style.

Think you need to look up the words causation and correlation tbh buddy.

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

It's interesting that performances and results picked up at the Forest game when it seemed to me that most of the boo boys had stayed away and the overwhelming majority of those in attendance were supportive of Stam and the players.

[NewCorkSeth]

TBF most fans were prepared to give Stam until December to sort things out even though up until the last 3 games he was offering zero football entertainment (except Villa) and a low point return. He was also being a stubborn prick and he’d publicly pissed a lot of fans off.
Fans were right to be calling for change. The pressure placed on Stam by fans had a positive impact on the team, the proof being recent results. Nothing wrong with fans saying it how it is, and wanting better than the turd that was being offered at the time. But there’s plenty wrong with fans just suffering in silence, then adding a “told you so” when things come good.

Let’s hope Jaap’s gained experience from this and we’ve now had our bad patch this season. If so, then I can only see us moving up the table in some style.

Think you need to look up the words causation and correlation tbh buddy.

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

Perfect. The "I'm entitled to my opinion" fallacy. Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false. There is no evidence that the fans had anything more to do with our change in fortunes than a monkey taking a shit in a South American jungle did.

[genome]

Think you need to look up the words causation and correlation tbh buddy.

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

It's interesting that performances and results picked up at the Forest game when it seemed to me that most of the boo boys had stayed away and the overwhelming majority of those in attendance were supportive of Stam and the players.

Agree with this. It wasn’t a loud atmosphere but it was a positive one and that helped.

I’m hesitant to be too revisionist about whether it was idiotic to call for Stam’s head - before Forest he was rightly being called into question and he obviously changed things for the better. It’s easy to say the Stam Out crew were wrong with the benefit of hindsight.

[Hound]

And like I’ve said, still at this stage have to view this season as a poor one so far.

A couple of good wins don’t make up for some of the dross prior to that

In saying that I’ve always wanted Stam to succeed and think there is a very good manager there. It would have been wrong to sack him without giving him a good opportunity to turn things round (we’re not there yet)

[leon]

Think you need to look up the words causation and correlation tbh buddy.

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

Perfect. The "I'm entitled to my opinion" fallacy. Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false. There is no evidence that the fans had anything more to do with our change in fortunes than a monkey taking a shit in a South American jungle did.

What a rather odd post. Your point about the crowd is strange. So playing away in front of hostile home crowds is identical to playing at home?

Re Your opinion is irrelevant.

That means everyone's opinion is irrelevant. Especially yours as there is nothing empirical there whatsoever.

Kind of makes the Team Board irrelevant? (Hooray)

And voting. And pretty much everything really. Great.

[Oilroyal]

Think you need to look up the words causation and correlation tbh buddy.

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

It's interesting that performances and results picked up at the Forest game when it seemed to me that most of the boo boys had stayed away and the overwhelming majority of those in attendance were supportive of Stam and the players.

haha..
In saw it differently, Stam needed to change his bloody mindlessness ways and listen to sense to what most of the fans were saying and demanding. He then changed his way, and we started winning. Not too much can be added to that! At the game or not!

[NewCorkSeth]

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

Perfect. The "I'm entitled to my opinion" fallacy. Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false. There is no evidence that the fans had anything more to do with our change in fortunes than a monkey taking a shit in a South American jungle did.

What a rather odd post. Your point about the crowd is strange. So playing away in front of hostile home crowds is identical to playing at home?

Re Your opinion is irrelevant.

That means everyone's opinion is irrelevant. Especially yours as there is nothing empirical there whatsoever.

Kind of makes the Team Board irrelevant? (Hooray)

And voting. And pretty much everything really. Great.

Sorry. You don't seem to understand what I am attempting to say.

The idea that you can state "the proof being recent results" as a qualifier for an unrelated opinion "The pressure placed on Stam by fans had a positive impact on the team" is what I am attacking. Not opinions. You could use the first statement to say almost anything. "The team have started showering together every morning and thats having a positive impact on the team, the proof being the recent results"

You may wish to re-read my comment as you misquoted it. I never said opinions are irrelevant, I said that they are irrelevant when used in a system of logic "Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false"

His assertion that the teams performances are a result of the actions of a segment of the fans is nonsense and his defense of "its my opinion" is a logical fallacy. You cannot support a factually incorrect (or unprovable if you prefer) statement by suggesting your right to an opinion gives it some sort of merit.

Example:
NewCorkSeth - "West Ham are doing poorly this season because the fans have not supported their manager enough, the recent results prove it"
Leon - "That doesn't make any sense"
NewCorkSeth - "Its my opinion"

See how the opinion part has no relevance to the first comment? Its refusal to engage in the the steps of logic I originally used.

[Oilroyal]

Think you need to look up the words causation and correlation tbh buddy.

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

Perfect. The "I'm entitled to my opinion" fallacy. Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false. There is no evidence that the fans had anything more to do with our change in fortunes than a monkey taking a shit in a South American jungle did.

Young man, of the twitter generation. Had he lost the last 3 games I think fans opinion would have counted toward his sacking. It’s a good thing that he listened to what most fans were saying and got his act together and changed his tactics and adapted his team. It was that close, that had he lost those recent games, then he would be history. But instead he finally woke up and took notice. Please don’t take me and most of the fans for granted, we don’t like being served up dog turd, week in, week out. And to those young fans claiming Jaap to be a genius. Yes, he might well be, but have some respect to those that have seen it all before and maybe allow a young Stam time to prove his value to this club before you spunk your load all over him and this forum.

[NewCorkSeth]

I'm still of the same opion young man (Buddy)

Perfect. The "I'm entitled to my opinion" fallacy. Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false. There is no evidence that the fans had anything more to do with our change in fortunes than a monkey taking a shit in a South American jungle did.

Young man, of the twitter generation. Had he lost the last 3 games I think fans opinion would have counted toward his sacking. It’s a good thing that he listened to what most fans were saying and got his act together and changed his tactics and adapted his team. It was that close, that had he lost those recent games, then he would be history. But instead he finally woke up and took notice. Please don’t take me and most of the fans for granted, we don’t like being served up dog turd, week in, week out. And to those young fans claiming Jaap to be a genius. Yes, he might well be, but have some respect to those that have seen it all before and maybe allow a young Stam time to prove his value to this club before you spunk your load all over him and this forum.

I'm not sure what to make of that response. I'll try take it point by point.

Had he lost the last 3 games I think fans opinion would have counted toward his sacking

Probably it would have. I imagine the owners opinions would have been more closely listened too but yes I accept that point. I never said anything to the contrary but ok.

It’s a good thing that he listened to what most fans were saying and got his act together and changed his tactics and adapted his team.

I would argue this entire sentence is pure speculation as we have no evidence he even remotely listened to the fans. Hes changed his tactics numerous times this season (6 different formations by my count) and 24 players have been used thus far so it could be argued he was likely to change shape/tactics/players regardless of what the fans did or did not say.

It was that close, that had he lost those recent games, then he would be history

Yeah, probably, not that that has anything to do with anything I have said.

But instead he finally woke up and took notice.

Took notice of what exactly? Our large medical bay? Our lack of a suitable striker? Our last match we started an academy player in his first match, 2 players just coming back from injury (Swift and Bacuna) and Beerens as a lone striker? If we had lost that game everyone would be saying "he hasn't learned his lesson" Hes tried that front 3 several times already this season to little effect. We can only play the team in front of us and in the last 2 games we've been fortunate to play teams who play into our tactics. He has honestly not changed his approach that much at all, we are just getting important players returning from injury at the right time.

Please don’t take me and most of the fans for granted, we don’t like being served up dog turd, week in, week out.

Of course we dont. I dont imagine many people do.

And to those young fans claiming Jaap to be a genius. Yes, he might well be, but have some respect to those that have seen it all before and maybe allow a young Stam time to prove his value to this club before you spunk your load all over him and this forum.

I dont recall ever once claiming Stam to be a genius. He is a good manager who did poorly with the talent he had at his disposal for a period longer than most fans would have liked.

[Oilroyal]

Perfect. The "I'm entitled to my opinion" fallacy. Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false. There is no evidence that the fans had anything more to do with our change in fortunes than a monkey taking a shit in a South American jungle did.

Young man, of the twitter generation. Had he lost the last 3 games I think fans opinion would have counted toward his sacking. It’s a good thing that he listened to what most fans were saying and got his act together and changed his tactics and adapted his team. It was that close, that had he lost those recent games, then he would be history. But instead he finally woke up and took notice. Please don’t take me and most of the fans for granted, we don’t like being served up dog turd, week in, week out. And to those young fans claiming Jaap to be a genius. Yes, he might well be, but have some respect to those that have seen it all before and maybe allow a young Stam time to prove his value to this club before you spunk your load all over him and this forum.

I'm not sure what to make of that response. I'll try take it point by point.

Had he lost the last 3 games I think fans opinion would have counted toward his sacking

Probably it would have. I imagine the owners opinions would have been more closely listened too but yes I accept that point. I never said anything to the contrary but ok.

It’s a good thing that he listened to what most fans were saying and got his act together and changed his tactics and adapted his team.

I would argue this entire sentence is pure speculation as we have no evidence he even remotely listened to the fans. Hes changed his tactics numerous times this season (6 different formations by my count) and 24 players have been used thus far so it could be argued he was likely to change shape/tactics/players regardless of what the fans did or did not say.

It was that close, that had he lost those recent games, then he would be history

Yeah, probably, not that that has anything to do with anything I have said.

But instead he finally woke up and took notice.

Took notice of what exactly? Our large medical bay? Our lack of a suitable striker? Our last match we started an academy player in his first match, 2 players just coming back from injury (Swift and Bacuna) and Beerens as a lone striker? If we had lost that game everyone would be saying "he hasn't learned his lesson" Hes tried that front 3 several times already this season to little effect. We can only play the team in front of us and in the last 2 games we've been fortunate to play teams who play into our tactics. He has honestly not changed his approach that much at all, we are just getting important players returning from injury at the right time.

Please don’t take me and most of the fans for granted, we don’t like being served up dog turd, week in, week out.

Of course we dont. I dont imagine many people do.

And to those young fans claiming Jaap to be a genius. Yes, he might well be, but have some respect to those that have seen it all before and maybe allow a young Stam time to prove his value to this club before you spunk your load all over him and this forum.

I dont recall ever once claiming Stam to be a genius. He is a good manager who did poorly with the talent he had at his disposal for a period longer than most fans would have liked.

Listen NCS, I've no beef with you. I accept that you believe that everything has just clicked into place as if by magic these past few weeks. But I'll always believed that Jaap got it seriously wrong right from the QPR game at the very start of this season, baring the last 3 games, we've been dog shite. And now he's finally got his act together, helped by fan opinion and a sharp talking to from the CEO and owners. (that's my opinion of course) Yours being, (it took us nearly 4 months to get it right.. really!?!). I had us down for wins these last 3 games knowing that the people in REAL CONTROL at this club would be demanding Jaap produced results. He was to stop indulging himself with silly tactics and 0 points and deliver. Listen we all want Reading to win matey but please see Jaap for what he is, a decent young manager, with lots still to learn.

[leon]

Perfect. The "I'm entitled to my opinion" fallacy. Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false. There is no evidence that the fans had anything more to do with our change in fortunes than a monkey taking a shit in a South American jungle did.

What a rather odd post. Your point about the crowd is strange. So playing away in front of hostile home crowds is identical to playing at home?

Re Your opinion is irrelevant.

That means everyone's opinion is irrelevant. Especially yours as there is nothing empirical there whatsoever.

Kind of makes the Team Board irrelevant? (Hooray)

And voting. And pretty much everything really. Great.

Sorry. You don't seem to understand what I am attempting to say.

The idea that you can state "the proof being recent results" as a qualifier for an unrelated opinion "The pressure placed on Stam by fans had a positive impact on the team" is what I am attacking. Not opinions. You could use the first statement to say almost anything. "The team have started showering together every morning and thats having a positive impact on the team, the proof being the recent results"

You may wish to re-read my comment as you misquoted it. I never said opinions are irrelevant, I said that they are irrelevant when used in a system of logic "Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false"

His assertion that the teams performances are a result of the actions of a segment of the fans is nonsense and his defense of "its my opinion" is a logical fallacy. You cannot support a factually incorrect (or unprovable if you prefer) statement by suggesting your right to an opinion gives it some sort of merit.

Example:
NewCorkSeth - "West Ham are doing poorly this season because the fans have not supported their manager enough, the recent results prove it"
Leon - "That doesn't make any sense"
NewCorkSeth - "Its my opinion"

See how the opinion part has no relevance to the first comment? Its refusal to engage in the the steps of logic I originally used.

What has logic got to do with this? Unless of course, you're using this as practice for your A Level coursework.

We're talking about opinions on an event that had really nothing to do with logic. Football is not a computer program. It doesn't have a flowchart that you can predict what will happen.

You wouldn't talk logic if you were talking about economics or history or even geography. So why football?

Yeah, yeah he said proof (underlined because you know it's really annoying) I believe that might be just a turn of phrase and not an enticement for you to try out your 6th form debating skills.

And defence is spelt with a C.

And it's leon not Leon. Get it right.

[NewCorkSeth]

What a rather odd post. Your point about the crowd is strange. So playing away in front of hostile home crowds is identical to playing at home?

Re Your opinion is irrelevant.

That means everyone's opinion is irrelevant. Especially yours as there is nothing empirical there whatsoever.

Kind of makes the Team Board irrelevant? (Hooray)

And voting. And pretty much everything really. Great.

Sorry. You don't seem to understand what I am attempting to say.

The idea that you can state "the proof being recent results" as a qualifier for an unrelated opinion "The pressure placed on Stam by fans had a positive impact on the team" is what I am attacking. Not opinions. You could use the first statement to say almost anything. "The team have started showering together every morning and thats having a positive impact on the team, the proof being the recent results"

You may wish to re-read my comment as you misquoted it. I never said opinions are irrelevant, I said that they are irrelevant when used in a system of logic "Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false"

His assertion that the teams performances are a result of the actions of a segment of the fans is nonsense and his defense of "its my opinion" is a logical fallacy. You cannot support a factually incorrect (or unprovable if you prefer) statement by suggesting your right to an opinion gives it some sort of merit.

Example:
NewCorkSeth - "West Ham are doing poorly this season because the fans have not supported their manager enough, the recent results prove it"
Leon - "That doesn't make any sense"
NewCorkSeth - "Its my opinion"

See how the opinion part has no relevance to the first comment? Its refusal to engage in the the steps of logic I originally used.

What has logic got to do with this? Unless of course, you're using this as practice for your A Level coursework.

We're talking about opinions on an event that had really nothing to do with logic. Football is not a computer program. It doesn't have a flowchart that you can predict what will happen.

You wouldn't talk logic if you were talking about economics or history or even geography. So why football?

Yeah, yeah he said proof (underlined because you know it's really annoying) I believe that might be just a turn of phrase and not an enticement for you to try out your 6th form debating skills.

And defence is spelt with a C.

And it's leon not Leon. Get it right.

What? Don't be thick.. Every argument follows a structure of logic that's what it has to do with it. Other wise I could quite happily make the argument that "Reading are going to win the league because we are going to concede a record number of goals this season"

Are you willfully ignoring everything I said?

He stated his opinion as fact, I said it wasn't a fact, he responded that it was his opinion it was fact, I said that's a famous logical fallacy, you started prattling on about barely tangential topics that I can only assume you started because you gleamed my posts for words you could extrapolate an argument from.

Of course you would! If you can argue about anything under the subjects of History, Economics or even Geography then you would have to "talk logic". Otherwise you could make as many inaccurate claims or non sequiturs as you wanted?

I don't know why this upsets you so much leon x

[genome]

Amazing that we find stuff to bicker about after such a good win

[leon]

Sorry. You don't seem to understand what I am attempting to say.

The idea that you can state "the proof being recent results" as a qualifier for an unrelated opinion "The pressure placed on Stam by fans had a positive impact on the team" is what I am attacking. Not opinions. You could use the first statement to say almost anything. "The team have started showering together every morning and thats having a positive impact on the team, the proof being the recent results"

You may wish to re-read my comment as you misquoted it. I never said opinions are irrelevant, I said that they are irrelevant when used in a system of logic "Your entitlement to an opinion is irrelevant as to whether your assertion is true or false"

His assertion that the teams performances are a result of the actions of a segment of the fans is nonsense and his defense of "its my opinion" is a logical fallacy. You cannot support a factually incorrect (or unprovable if you prefer) statement by suggesting your right to an opinion gives it some sort of merit.

Example:
NewCorkSeth - "West Ham are doing poorly this season because the fans have not supported their manager enough, the recent results prove it"
Leon - "That doesn't make any sense"
NewCorkSeth - "Its my opinion"

See how the opinion part has no relevance to the first comment? Its refusal to engage in the the steps of logic I originally used.

What has logic got to do with this? Unless of course, you're using this as practice for your A Level coursework.

We're talking about opinions on an event that had really nothing to do with logic. Football is not a computer program. It doesn't have a flowchart that you can predict what will happen.

You wouldn't talk logic if you were talking about economics or history or even geography. So why football?

Yeah, yeah he said proof (underlined because you know it's really annoying) I believe that might be just a turn of phrase and not an enticement for you to try out your 6th form debating skills.

And defence is spelt with a C.

And it's leon not Leon. Get it right.

What? Don't be thick.. Every argument follows a structure of logic that's what it has to do with it. Other wise I could quite happily make the argument that "Reading are going to win the league because we are going to concede a record number of goals this season"

Are you willfully ignoring everything I said?

He stated his opinion as fact, I said it wasn't a fact, he responded that it was his opinion it was fact, I said that's a famous logical fallacy, you started prattling on about barely tangential topics that I can only assume you started because you gleamed my posts for words you could extrapolate an argument from.

Of course you would! If you can argue about anything under the subjects of History, Economics or even Geography then you would have to "talk logic". Otherwise you could make as many inaccurate claims or non sequiturs as you wanted?

I don't know why this upsets you so much leon x

Take a chill pill chum. You're not in the 6th form common now.

[NewCorkSeth]

What has logic got to do with this? Unless of course, you're using this as practice for your A Level coursework.

We're talking about opinions on an event that had really nothing to do with logic. Football is not a computer program. It doesn't have a flowchart that you can predict what will happen.

You wouldn't talk logic if you were talking about economics or history or even geography. So why football?

Yeah, yeah he said proof (underlined because you know it's really annoying) I believe that might be just a turn of phrase and not an enticement for you to try out your 6th form debating skills.

And defence is spelt with a C.

And it's leon not Leon. Get it right.

What? Don't be thick.. Every argument follows a structure of logic that's what it has to do with it. Other wise I could quite happily make the argument that "Reading are going to win the league because we are going to concede a record number of goals this season"

Are you willfully ignoring everything I said?

He stated his opinion as fact, I said it wasn't a fact, he responded that it was his opinion it was fact, I said that's a famous logical fallacy, you started prattling on about barely tangential topics that I can only assume you started because you gleamed my posts for words you could extrapolate an argument from.

Of course you would! If you can argue about anything under the subjects of History, Economics or even Geography then you would have to "talk logic". Otherwise you could make as many inaccurate claims or non sequiturs as you wanted?

I don't know why this upsets you so much leon x

Take a chill pill chum. You're not in the 6th form common now.

I imagine thats exactly where I should be at this time in the day were I in 6th form?

[leon]

What? Don't be thick.. Every argument follows a structure of logic that's what it has to do with it. Other wise I could quite happily make the argument that "Reading are going to win the league because we are going to concede a record number of goals this season"

Are you willfully ignoring everything I said?

He stated his opinion as fact, I said it wasn't a fact, he responded that it was his opinion it was fact, I said that's a famous logical fallacy, you started prattling on about barely tangential topics that I can only assume you started because you gleamed my posts for words you could extrapolate an argument from.

Of course you would! If you can argue about anything under the subjects of History, Economics or even Geography then you would have to "talk logic". Otherwise you could make as many inaccurate claims or non sequiturs as you wanted?

I don't know why this upsets you so much leon x

Take a chill pill chum. You're not in the 6th form common now.

I imagine thats exactly where I should be at this time in the day were I in 6th form?

I though you had double philosophy first thing on a Monday?

[NewCorkSeth]

Take a chill pill chum. You're not in the 6th form common now.

I imagine thats exactly where I should be at this time in the day were I in 6th form?

I though you had double philosophy first thing on a Monday?

Ethics. I skip it.

[Nameless]

Odd that people think fans had anything to do with Stam changing anything when essentially nothing has changed.
We've not played badly this season, just not well enough and not effectively enough (semantics maybe, but certainly in home games no one has really looked better than us and almost every defeat has been narrow).
We've not done anything different over the last few games, just what we do has suddenly worked and the potential that has always been there has come to the fore.
Of course Stam should shoulder some blame for not finding a way to make it click earlier but we are still playing his way. the performances over the last few games have been what should have happened earlier, the new signings were clearly intended to build on what we had in place last season by adding more pace and flair (something Stam said a long while ago he wanted to do).
So it's daft to think the rumbles of dissent from those wanting a radical change have made a difference, if anything you need to admire Stam for holding on to his belief that what he was trying to do would come good. he didn't change to route one, we still play it out from the back, we just do it better than we have done.
Whatever the reasons it's good to see the foundations that had been laid looking like they may produce results. IF we play the way we have over the last few games we might deliver what was the minimum expectation at the start of the season which was another top 6 finish. Despite our serious under performance we are still only a whisker behind the pack with significant strength to add if we can sort the injury situation. Get the right player in in January and we can really kick on, over to you Mr Teverenden....