What is the point in HRK

[Snowball]

Tell us again how Long is a 10 goal a season man in the PL...

I refer the dishonourable gentleman to the answer I gave earlier

[RoyallyFcuked]

HRK has a great left foot, sometimes shows signs of a good finisher and can be really good on his day. The trouble is, those days are few and far between. He had a decent season in the PL when you look at the stats but he just hasn't kicked on from there.

He's a pretty confused player in terms of position too. He's not really a striker but he's not really a winger either and IMO he's probably not worth keeping beyond the summer.

[Ian Royal]

Similar to Blackman in that they're both really wide forwards in an attacking three.

Given Obita and Gunter are decent going forward and not great defensively I do wonder if we're better suited to a back 3 with wingbacks and ... something like:

......................Federici
..........Pearce..Hector..Cooper
Gunter....................................Obita
............Chalobah..Williams
....Blackman...........................HRK
...........................Pog

Hector can step out to bring the ball forward if there's space. Williams or Chalobah can slot across to cover a rampaging run forward. The flanks can drop back in defence to a 5-4-1. The players would need to be aware and bright enough to go with circumstance though.

[Hoop Blah]

On the Obita vs Gunter assist/goals comparison it's another hollow comparison for a couple of reasons, mainly that Obita takes set pieces on a regular basis and so on the rare occasion we score from one he's likely to pick up an assist.

Their assist contributions are relatively small and so the samples are a bit small to make too much of a conclusion but more importantly it's massively impacted by what others do with the chances they do or don't create. What really needs to be compared is the number of chances they create or number of opportunities they waste.

Either way, for all the praise Gunter gets for being an athlete and attacking full back (misplaced a lot of the time IMO) you have to remember that Obita has been brought up as a singer and so really should be more effective in the final third than Gunter who's main attacking strength is his relationship with McLeary.

[Hoop Blah]

As for Robson-Kanu, IMO it doesn't matter how well or bad the other players like McLeary have performed relative to him his performances have been well short of the level expected of him.

I've never really been a fan of his but the last two seasons were his big chance to show he's a danger at this level and he's been pretty woeful. The fact he still gets a start doesn't mean he hasn't been poor, it just shows how little quality we have as an alternative.

[Snowball]

Either way, for all the praise Gunter gets for being an athlete and attacking full back (misplaced a lot of the time IMO) you have to remember that Obita has been brought up as a singer and so really should be more effective in the final third than Gunter who's main attacking strength is his relationship with McLeary.

You think he'd do OK on The Voice?

[Snowball]

Similar to Blackman in that they're both really wide forwards in an attacking three.

Given Obita and Gunter are decent going forward and not great defensively I do wonder if we're better suited to a back 3 with wingbacks and ... something like:

......................Federici
..........Pearce..Hector..Cooper
Gunter....................................Obita
............Chalobah..Williams
....Blackman...........................HRK
...........................Pog

Hector can step out to bring the ball forward if there's space. Williams or Chalobah can slot across to cover a rampaging run forward. The flanks can drop back in defence to a 5-4-1. The players would need to be aware and bright enough to go with circumstance though.

So you'd drop McCleary?

[SCIAG]

snowball appears to have regressed back into proper autistic mental after mellowing for a while.

Not cool Ian.

I've put a few "old favourites" in the list for comparison.

Off the players currently at the club and have played 10+ games, HRK is fourth overall in terms of minutes played for a goal or assist, just 30 minutes behind our current top player Cox, 29 behind McCleary, 18 behind Mackie.

That's all well and good, but you're once more forgetting important things.

Firstly, as we all know, these sorts of stats favour impact subs who come on when we're chasing a match and throwing everything at it. Long, Le Fondre, Yakubu, and, for most of his career, HRK.

Secondly, they favour set piece takers. HRK takes penalties, unlike McCleary. Obita takes corners and free kicks, unlike Gunter.Obviously there's a reason those players take set pieces and that shouldn't be taken away from them, I wouldn't mind Ian Harte in the team right now, but I also know I'd rather have Gunter running at an opposition defence than Harte or (McDermott era) Shorey.

That second point is particularly apparent here - in order to have a remotely fair comparison you'd need to take out HRK's penalties and Obita's set pieces:

264 Appearances 25 Goals 31 Assists = 56 G/A in 16,278 Minutes = 291 Minutes per Goal/Assist LEFT - "Obita- HRK"
202 Appearances 11 Goals 29 Assists = 40 G/A in 15,473 Minutes = 386 Minutes per Goal/Assist RIGHT "Gunter-McCleary"

The appearances should really be averaged out and the mins goal/assist should really be halved as they are "both playing"

132 Appearances 25 Goals 31 Assists = 56 G/A in 8,139 Minutes = 146 Minutes per Goal/Assist "Obita- HRK"
101 Appearances 11 Goals 29 Assists = 40 G/A in 7,737 Minutes = 193 Minutes per Goal/Assist "Gunter-McCleary"

[Ian Royal]

Similar to Blackman in that they're both really wide forwards in an attacking three.

Given Obita and Gunter are decent going forward and not great defensively I do wonder if we're better suiHe's to a back 3 with wingbacks and ... something like:

......................Federici
..........Pearce..Hector..Cooper
Gunter....................................Obita
............Chalobah..Williams
....Blackman...........................HRK
...........................Pog

Hector can step out to bring the ball forward if there's space. Williams or Chalobah can slot across to cover a rampaging run forward. The flanks can drop back in defence to a 5-4-1. The players would need to be aware and bright enough to go with circumstance though.

So you'd drop McCleary?

It's a point about wide forwards and getting the best fit for what we've got, McCleary is a more conventional winger. And he's not been the same post injury bar one or two games anyway, so dropping him is hardly a shock move... he's not particularly first choice under Clarke anyway.. It's not a preference for that side to play, just a discussion point.

[Snowball]

SCIAG

It wasn't "in depth analysis"

As I said it was a rough thing, just curious as to which side
produces the goals.

As I also said, my instinct was that the right wing produced 3-4-5 times as many goals/assists
as the left side, so I was very surprised to find the left side produces more.

Sure, I'd need to know how many HRK goals were pens, how many (if any) pens
were won by HRK, Obita, Gunter, McCleary. Also how often HRK played LW but
not with Obita at LB, how often Obita played LB but not behind HRK, and how
often Obita played LW or MF, and how often HRK played striker or No 10

But teasing out the detail ain't something I fancy doing

[Hoop Blah]

And that kind of shows why your stats are largely irrelevant in this context and detail.

You come over all holier-than-thou because you look at the facts as opposed to form an opinion with your eyes and understanding of the game but don't take enough of the influencing factors into account to make those facts relevant.

[Portsmouth Royal]

Similar to Blackman in that they're both really wide forwards in an attacking three.

Given Obita and Gunter are decent going forward and not great defensively I do wonder if we're better suited to a back 3 with wingbacks and ... something like:

......................Federici
..........Pearce..Hector..Cooper
Gunter....................................Obita
............Chalobah..Williams
....Blackman...........................HRK
...........................Pog

Hector can step out to bring the ball forward if there's space. Williams or Chalobah can slot across to cover a rampaging run forward. The flanks can drop back in defence to a 5-4-1. The players would need to be aware and bright enough to go with circumstance though.

Very reminiscent of Marco Bielsa's typical team set up. Like it. Think McCleary could play the wing forward role equally well too. Kind of 433 in possession, 541 without.

[Snowball]

And that kind of shows why your stats are largely irrelevant in this context and detail.

You come over all holier-than-thou because you look at the facts as opposed to form an opinion with your eyes and understanding of the game but don't take enough of the influencing factors into account to make those facts relevant.

WRONG. We see right-sided attacks as "more useful" and producing more chances/goals
mainly because the play is superficially more exciting (in the same way as we rarely notice great
off the ball work but see the pass and strike or fabulous tackle)

as someone famous once said, having to tackle is a sign of failure

But, if we look at Gunter and McCleary they are NOT producing a significant
number of goals and assists, and that, as I said, I find surprising.

There have been a million and on studies in psychology showing how people
are influenced by drama/excitement and over-weight events because of it.

I LOVE great wing play, Glenda, Kebe, McCleary at his best. But how many goals
have our wing plays made this season?

[Hoop Blah]

We haven't scored that many goals though Snowball, that is a key point in the lack of assists. 7 blanks in 9 homes games, or whatever the stat before the Brighton game, is testament to that issue.

I also think you're creating this perception that the right side creates so many more goals/chances than the left.

[Forbury Lion]

Similar to Blackman in that they're both really wide forwards in an attacking three.

Given Obita and Gunter are decent going forward and not great defensively I do wonder if we're better suited to a back 3 with wingbacks and ... something like:

......................Federici
..........Pearce..Hector..Cooper
Gunter....................................Obita
............Chalobah..Williams
....Blackman...........................HRK
...........................Pog

Hector can step out to bring the ball forward if there's space. Williams or Chalobah can slot across to cover a rampaging run forward. The flanks can drop back in defence to a 5-4-1. The players would need to be aware and bright enough to go with circumstance though.

So you'd drop McCleary?

and Mackie?

[Snowball]

We haven't scored that many goals though Snowball, that is a key point in the lack of assists. 7 blanks in 9 homes games, or whatever the stat before the Brighton game, is testament to that issue.

I also think you're creating this perception that the right side creates so many more goals/chances than the left.

Huh? I said, my subjective impression. Isn't me creating the perception a given?

Mind you, plenty on this list say "we are creating nothing down the left" or something similar

[WestRoyal]

SCIAG

It wasn't "in depth analysis"

As I said it was a rough thing, just curious as to which side
produces the goals.

As I also said, my instinct was that the right wing produced 3-4-5 times as many goals/assists
as the left side, so I was very surprised to find the left side produces more.

Sure, I'd need to know how many HRK goals were pens, how many (if any) pens
were won by HRK, Obita, Gunter, McCleary. Also how often HRK played LW but
not with Obita at LB, how often Obita played LB but not behind HRK, and how
often Obita played LW or MF, and how often HRK played striker or No 10

But teasing out the detail ain't something I fancy doing

you must be related

[Hoop Blah]

We haven't scored that many goals though Snowball, that is a key point in the lack of assists. 7 blanks in 9 homes games, or whatever the stat before the Brighton game, is testament to that issue.

I also think you're creating this perception that the right side creates so many more goals/chances than the left.

Huh? I said, my subjective impression. Isn't me creating the perception a given?

Mind you, plenty on this list say "we are creating nothing down the left" or something similar

Yeah, to be fair you put the initial suggestion forward but then started rattling along as if it was the general consensus of all fans that McLeary and his chums on the right have massively outperformed the left. If not you're just using the forum to argue with yourself aren't you?

I do agree that many people say that we're creating nothing down the left, but I'd say there's been just as many criticisms of the right in terms of Mackie's lack of end product, Gunters lack of crosses, Kelly's fear of crossing the half way line (I do remember one cracking cross from him which I think resulted in a goal) and McCleary's patchy form and injury problems all season.

You've not really disproved that either by the way, not unless you take out the specific assists from Obita's set pieces and/or you show something about the volume of chances created as opposed to converted.

[Angry Shed Sex]

But he had put lots of words in bold and sometimes in caps.

Sometimes the letters are larger than normal.

that's got to mean he knows what he's talking about, right?

[teignmouth hoops]

There we go just shows what he can do when he can be bothered to move his big arse. That was probably his best game since prem days, so what has happened in the meantime, he's been cruising