Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

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Taffster
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Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Taffster » 11 Apr 2021 20:23

Given the chances of play-offs now look slim to none given various teams run ins I've began to wonder what direction the club moves in for next season.

At first glance given a successful season this year you would expect it to be more of the same. However given the likelihood of some of the big names players (Olise, Richards, Joao) potentially leaving to go on to big better things, additionally the strong chance of us being under a transfer embargo it really does make you question whether we can build on the foundations from this year.

Personally I think next season could hinge on a few main areas -

Style

While very pleasing on the eye the abundance of technically gifted players we currently have does define the way in which we approach a game, I think as a whole we would all agree that some of the football played this season has been fantastic and I wouldn't want to deviate away from that to much.
That being said due the similarity in our attacking players it doesn't allow much for a plan B when the game isn't going well so I would like to see us bring in some more traditional widemen who can be more direct and get to the buy line and actually cross a ball in to the danger area. I firmly believe if we had the options to vary the attacking style then we would be comfortably play-off material, all to often we have become one pace and easy to defend against asking for us to break the lines or a individual moment of brilliance.
I also believe because of the style of player we have it's meant we have been pigeon holed into one formation and by bringing in some genuine wide men we would be able to change it up.

Transfers

This is a tricky one as no one knows if we will be under an embargo, if we are I fully expect and want us to sell the crown jewels in Olise. If this helps to bring us back on a even keel along with some big wages in aluko and baldock heading of the books then that can only be good for the club moving forward.
It's going to have to be a busy transfer window though with replacements need for Richards along with another CM and a few attacking players to get the squad healthy and I just hope we have at least a bit of a budget to play with.

Attitude

This is the biggest one for me, the change in team spirit this season has been fantastic compared to the few prior. What I don't want to see is similar to the play off loss against Huddersfield the players start to shrink and go backwards, along with the returning of fans to the stadium it will be interesting to see how the players react.

Personally I would be looking for us to be challenging for play-offs next year but not strong contenders for them.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Hound » 11 Apr 2021 20:40

Really does depend a lot on the finances and who might need to be sold if anyone

Keep the squad together without Richards and inevitably Olise and we’ve proven we’re a good match for anyone really. Would certainly expect to challenge for the POs again

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Stranded » 11 Apr 2021 20:51

Surely we can leave this conversation for a couple of weeks until it's confirmed where we are next year?

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by CountryRoyal » 11 Apr 2021 21:04

Stranded Surely we can leave this conversation for a couple of weeks until it's confirmed where we are next year?


+100

In an ironic turn of events it seems I am one of the more optimistic on here. Listen, after a pretty bad weekend its easy to be a bit defeatist. We may very well not finish in the top 6 but there are still games left and until its over there isn't much point in speculating.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Snowflake Royal » 11 Apr 2021 21:10

Taffster Given the chances of play-offs now look slim to none given various teams run ins I've began to wonder what direction the club moves in for next season.

At first glance given a successful season this year you would expect it to be more of the same. However given the likelihood of some of the big names players (Olise, Richards, Joao) potentially leaving to go on to big better things, additionally the strong chance of us being under a transfer embargo it really does make you question whether we can build on the foundations from this year.


I doubt Joao is going anywhere given how his form has fallen apart completely and the owners are quite happy to refuse to sell for silly money for their stars. I also wouldn't rule out Olise still being here in August for the same owner selling refusal reasons... although that's a fairly slim chance.

Aluko will be gone, Baldock will be gone. If Olise goes we'll get multi millions. I also fancy us being able to challenge the FL on changing their FFP rules in a way which actually makes our financial situation worse. Assuming what has been suggested is true and that they're including 4 years of accounts and averaging the most recent two. Four years ago was absolutely horrendous for us and was going to be a real weight lifted from the books. Not to mention that the current embargo may be an entirely account submission admin formality.

Taffster Personally I think next season could hinge on a few main areas -

Style

While very pleasing on the eye the abundance of technically gifted players we currently have does define the way in which we approach a game, I think as a whole we would all agree that some of the football played this season has been fantastic and I wouldn't want to deviate away from that to much.
That being said due the similarity in our attacking players it doesn't allow much for a plan B when the game isn't going well so I would like to see us bring in some more traditional widemen who can be more direct and get to the buy line and actually cross a ball in to the danger area. I firmly believe if we had the options to vary the attacking style then we would be comfortably play-off material, all to often we have become one pace and easy to defend against asking for us to break the lines or a individual moment of brilliance.
I also believe because of the style of player we have it's meant we have been pigeon holed into one formation and by bringing in some genuine wide men we would be able to change it up.

I think we'd have seen much more variability to our game but for injuries. Ejaria, Olise and Swift are all flair players, but all bring something slightly different to the side. Olise can run with the ball, Swift has a great passing range and Ejaria can skip through multiple challenges in small space. Add to that Meite is very direct and physical. That's fairly varied.

Though like you'd I'd want to see more traditional pace and width, especially at LW. On top of that we'll need a new LB - so soon after having three of similar quality, that's a bit frustrating. In some ways Olise going actually solves a problem, because him, Swift and Ejaria are all really more suited to the same central AM position even if it's in different ways. Having back up right and left wingers, or even a starter left winger would give us better balance.

Taffster Transfers

This is a tricky one as no one knows if we will be under an embargo, if we are I fully expect and want us to sell the crown jewels in Olise. If this helps to bring us back on a even keel along with some big wages in aluko and baldock heading of the books then that can only be good for the club moving forward.
It's going to have to be a busy transfer window though with replacements need for Richards along with another CM and a few attacking players to get the squad healthy and I just hope we have at least a bit of a budget to play with.


I suspect the window will be relatively quiet, we certainly can't afford to buy marquee signings left, right and centre, but I do expect us to make a couple of decent ones and some more loans. Ideally, I'd prefer to sell Ejaria or Swift and keep Olise, but that seems unlikely. Likewise it's a shame it's McIntyre's contract that's up, not Moore's. As good as Moore is, his wage to performance isn't great and shifting him would give us a lot more leeway alongside the departures of Aluko and Baldock.

Not convinced we need a central midfielder. I like the looks of Tetek, we can probably pick up another bit part loanee like Pele / Semedo if we want and if we pick up a decent left winger I'd be perfectly happy with Ejaria and Swift for the central attacking role assuming Olise goes.

Taffster Attitude

This is the biggest one for me, the change in team spirit this season has been fantastic compared to the few prior. What I don't want to see is similar to the play off loss against Huddersfield the players start to shrink and go backwards, along with the returning of fans to the stadium it will be interesting to see how the players react.

Personally I would be looking for us to be challenging for play-offs next year but not strong contenders for them.

I think the attitude in the squad is pretty good. Especially when you have a bedrock of the likes of McIntyre, Holmes, Rino and Laurent, who are all fairly young, on the up no nonsense and dedicated. So agreed, and I think this could be chalked off as a good 'experience' season and ultimate disappointment be used as motivation.

As always, for me going into a new season the aim is top six, with top 10 being fine and top 14 being a bit disappointing but acceptable. I see us as reasonably comfortably top 14 next season even if Olise, McIntyre and Joao go. Which I don't think is likely.


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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Lower West » 11 Apr 2021 22:06

There's little money in the game. When the likes of Bayern Munich see Richards as a suitable squad. Says a lot even for the top European clubs. Must be losing money at a horrendous rate.

Unlikely any key contracted players will leave. As they'll be no bidders. Only exception is Olise who we might as well cash in to help balance the books though not a big wage. Fortunately a few more big wage players will depart the club in the summer along with others that will never feature regularly when their contracts expire. Expect that we will be restricted to free transfers, loans and promotion from within the academy. Survival is the name of the game.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Snowball » 11 Apr 2021 22:12

Hound Really does depend a lot on the finances and who might need to be sold if anyone

we’ve proven we’re a good match for anyone really. Would certainly expect to challenge for the POs again



I'm not sure that's true. Here are our results against the top six and the top ten

We have only managed 4 points off one side, Barnsley.
We have lost 4 at home out of 7 matches played with Swansea and Cardiff to come
We have only won one game away (Cardiff) when they were poor.

I think that says we have proven NOT to be a match against the top six.

We've lost 7 games and still have to go away to Norwich

3-0 Boro (HOME
3-1 Brentford HOME
3-1 Brentford AWAY
4-2 Bournemouth AWAY
2-0 Watford Away
2-1 Millwall HOME
1-2 Norwich HOME

We beat Barnsley before their managerial change when they were averaging a point a game (and they were down a player)
Yes we beat Watford 1-0 but they could easily have been 2-0 up before that.

I'm usually an optimist, but I think the stats show we really AREN'T a match for the big guns.

Our only good result IMO was beating Bournemouth 3-1 but even that was in their sticky patch

Against Top Six

1-2 Norwich L 1-2 ? ?-?
1-2 Watford W 1-0 L 2-0
2-6 Brentford L 1-3 L 3-1
0-0 Swansea ? ?-? D 0-0
4-1 Barnsley W 3-0 D 1-1
5-5 Bournemouth W 3-1 L 4-2

P10 W3 D2 L5 13-16 = 11 Points

Looking at Top ten

2-1 Cardiff ? ?-? W 2-1
2-3 Millwall L 1-2 D 1-1
0-3 BORO L 0-3 D 0-0

P15 W4 D4 L7 17-23 = 16 Points
Last edited by Snowball on 11 Apr 2021 22:22, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Snowball » 11 Apr 2021 22:17

I love this RDG team but not sure how we can say thy have a great attitude
when in almost every game they've gone behind they've lost, and often
when we concede 1 we conceded 2 or 3. BMTH, Preston, Stoke, Boro, for example.

I think we are mentally frail, and we still need a nasty leader.

In our favour, was surprised to hear we have the third-youngest squad in the league
so next year we will be more mature

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Lower West » 11 Apr 2021 22:32

Snowball I love this RDG team but not sure how we can say thy have a great attitude
when in almost every game they've gone behind they've lost, and often
when we concede 1 we conceded 2 or 3. BMTH, Preston, Stoke, Boro, for example.

I think we are mentally frail, and we still need a nasty leader.

In our favour, was surprised to hear we have the third-youngest squad in the league
so next year we will be more mature


Is Moore a good enough Captain. If this is Morrison's last season. Then is Mr Reliable ~ Andy Rinomhota the next logical choice to lead a young group.


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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Zip » 11 Apr 2021 22:58

One of the enjoyable aspects in recent years has been the often unexpected rise of Academy players. None of us expected Rinomhota to do so well two years ago. We could see Olise had huge potential. He has really advanced this season.Richards too. TMac is not a surprise. We could see last season his potential and he is a captain in the making. Holmes has advanced,

So who will step up next season? Maybe Tetek if he stays. Or Onen. Melvin- Lambert? Nevers?
Really looking forward to see the next Academy breakthrough players because there will be at least one.

So yes release the likes of Aluko and Baldock but the signings need to mostly freebies and loanees. We have to be realistic. Besides the players we need may already be at the club and just need to be given the chances.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Stranded » 12 Apr 2021 09:41

Snowball I love this RDG team but not sure how we can say thy have a great attitude
when in almost every game they've gone behind they've lost, and often
when we concede 1 we conceded 2 or 3. BMTH, Preston, Stoke, Boro, for example.

I think we are mentally frail, and we still need a nasty leader.

In our favour, was surprised to hear we have the third-youngest squad in the league
so next year we will be more mature


Unfortunately, there is still a decent amount of players here who were used to losing more often than not and that shows when we go a goal down - we really need to work on the squad mentally regardless of where we end up next season.

You mention our record against the top clubs and I think that (along with relatively poor record against the bottom 3 or 4) shows where we stand at the moment, we are probably amongst the best of the rest as we seem to pick up the majority of our points from the clubs around the 10th to 18th mark.

Our run at the beginning of the season has allowed us to be on the fringes of the play-offs rather than around the 10th spot the current mentality issues with trailing in games, should see us.

As said on another post, if you look at the 7 wins in 8 we got at the beginning, only Watford was really a shock and we were "lucky" that those fixtures fell as they did. If say the Bournemouth (a) game and the Watford (H) as well as say the Rotherham and Coventry games, then we would be in the same spot now (following an identical record after 12 games) but people would be more accepting of us being not potentially being quite good enough but because 7 wins came in a compressed run at the top, it just feels like a wasted opportunity to many, understandably, when this season is about progress - we will finish the year minimum 10 points better than last, more likely 15-20 better. If we can repeat that progress next year, we'll be laughing - or this year, like Stam's play-off year, is the blip and we go back to struggling.

All the more reason to just enjoy it.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by WestYorksRoyal » 12 Apr 2021 10:39

I think the corner has been turned by the club. The team is likeable and committed to the cause, we seem to be making better recruitment decisions and don't appear as dysfunctional since Gourlay left (admittedly the way the Bowen/Pauno swap was handled was a shit show). The owners are loaded and seem well committed to the cause, with long term investment like the training grond. Hopefully once we have more FFP freedom they've learned their lesson from 2017 - 18 not to spunk money up the wall on mediocrity.

Will we be better on the pitch next season? Too soon to tell with so many unknowns. But I'd be very surprised if this is another 16/17. That season was a flash in the pan sandwiched between ownership turbulence and the Gourlay era. Did we even like that team much? Kermogant, Obita, Moore and AAH were popular with fans but there is a far better connection between club and fans now.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Snowball » 12 Apr 2021 10:46

Stranded

As said on another post, if you look at the 7 wins in 8 we got at the beginning, only Watford was really a shock and we were "lucky" that those fixtures fell as they did.



Yup. Like Watford now. Their brilliant current run has had a lot of (on paper) easy games.

Opposition teams vary in their form. An example might be, the four clubs who caught Swansea in their recent off-period. Now Swansea have (possibly) returned to form just in time to give us a hard game!! Let's hope they slip up mid-week...

But this is why (duh) we should judge over 46 games, teams and individual players. Imagine we had pottered around for 32 games in 9th/10th then suddenly W7D1 out of our last 8 and rocketed to 7th. Apart from the form angle our points total and our chances would be exactly the same yet everyone would be happy!


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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by genome » 12 Apr 2021 10:54

WestYorksRoyal I think the corner has been turned by the club. The team is likeable and committed to the cause, we seem to be making better recruitment decisions and don't appear as dysfunctional since Gourlay left (admittedly the way the Bowen/Pauno swap was handled was a shit show). The owners are loaded and seem well committed to the cause, with long term investment like the training grond. Hopefully once we have more FFP freedom they've learned their lesson from 2017 - 18 not to spunk money up the wall on mediocrity.

Will we be better on the pitch next season? Too soon to tell with so many unknowns. But I'd be very surprised if this is another 16/17. That season was a flash in the pan sandwiched between ownership turbulence and the Gourlay era. Did we even like that team much? Kermogant, Obita, Moore and AAH were popular with fans but there is a far better connection between club and fans now.


Yeah, agreed. This season feels very different to 2016/17

We have a very talented and young side that plays good football. I just think we're missing one or two experienced players to give the side more backbone. Inevitably we'll lose Olise and Richards this summer, but I don't think they are irreplaceable. Swift coming back next year will help.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Snowball » 12 Apr 2021 11:09

genome Swift coming back next year will help.



Yeah game 1 should be good (cough)

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by The Royal Forester » 12 Apr 2021 11:12

It all depends who the manager is next season. With these owners I can't see them sticking with Pauno, like they should, if we miss out on the playoff. Changing the manager will only ensure the players and fans lose confidence in the team and club.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Hound » 12 Apr 2021 11:43

Snowball Against Top Six

1-2 Norwich L 1-2 ? ?-?
1-2 Watford W 1-0 L 2-0
2-6 Brentford L 1-3 L 3-1
0-0 Swansea ? ?-? D 0-0
4-1 Barnsley W 3-0 D 1-1
5-5 Bournemouth W 3-1 L 4-2



some of this is such random stat picking though. Esp when you start bringing In the likes of Millwall and Middlesboro into the argument. We've also beaten teams who were top ten and going well at that time like Bristol C and Blackburn.

We've beaten Watford, Barnsley and Bournemouth. Got a draw away at Swansea and actually played well against Watford away, Brentford home and Bournemouth away for 45m. Compare those performances with some of the ones last season like Fulham, WBA, Leeds and Brentford (h) last season where we set out to hang on from min 1 and usually failed miserably.

The performances have shown we are capable of mixing it with the best even if we've quite often come up short on the result (and yes thats why we will prob end 7th and not higher)

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by CountryRoyal » 12 Apr 2021 12:03

Lower West
Snowball I love this RDG team but not sure how we can say thy have a great attitude
when in almost every game they've gone behind they've lost, and often
when we concede 1 we conceded 2 or 3. BMTH, Preston, Stoke, Boro, for example.

I think we are mentally frail, and we still need a nasty leader.

In our favour, was surprised to hear we have the third-youngest squad in the league
so next year we will be more mature


Is Moore a good enough Captain. If this is Morrison's last season. Then is Mr Reliable ~ Andy Rinomhota the next logical choice to lead a young group.


It won’t happen but I’d move Moore on in the summer.

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Snowball » 12 Apr 2021 12:03

Hound
Snowball Against Top Six

1-2 Norwich L 1-2 ? ?-?
1-2 Watford W 1-0 L 2-0
2-6 Brentford L 1-3 L 3-1
0-0 Swansea ? ?-? D 0-0
4-1 Barnsley W 3-0 D 1-1
5-5 Bournemouth W 3-1 L 4-2



Hound
some of this is such random stat picking though.




Hardly "stat-picking" if I take, first the current top-six when arguing we are not quite as good as them, and when they are 95% likely to be the final top-six!

Hound
Esp when you start bringing In the likes of Millwall and Middlesboro into the argument. We've also beaten teams who were top ten and going well at that time like Bristol C and Blackburn.



I used the CURRENT top-six and expanded it to the CURRENT top ten, when arguing that we are coming up a little short on the top six. That is totally reasonable and not slightly selective.

If we start looking at how clubs were doing when we played them (eg Blackburn) do we TAKE OUT the 3-1 win versus BMTH who were having a bad run when we beat them 3-1? Ditto Barnsley?



Hound
We've beaten Watford, Barnsley and Bournemouth. Got a draw away at Swansea and actually played well against Watford away, Brentford home and Bournemouth away for 45m. Compare those performances with some of the ones last season like Fulham, WBA, Leeds and Brentford (h) last season where we set out to hang on from min 1 and usually failed miserably.



Yeah, but Hound, above you were arguing for me including beating an in form Blackburn. You must therefore REMOVE Barnsley who were barely averaging a point a game when we beat them and were badly affected by a red card.

And, hey, I'm not arguing that we aren't better than last season, just saying, we look like a "natural 7th", eg as someone said, we're best-of-the-rest and we are only vaguely hanging on there because other sides have had rough patches

Hound The performances have shown we are capable of mixing it with the best even if we've quite often come up short on the result (and yes thats why we will prob end 7th and not higher)


I can't agree that 4/7 home defeats against better clubs, and only one away win is "capable of mixing it with the best"

The 1-0 at home v Watford was a bit of a steal. The beating of Barnsley was against a then-weak side and needed help from the ref. We won at Cardiff when they were rapidly going down the tubes and the manager got sacked (our ONLY away win against a top-ten side

Our HOME results/goals F-A against the top 10??

1-2 L
1-0 W
1-3 L
3-1 W
2-0 W
0-3 L
1-2 L

W3 L4

9-11 That is AWFUL for a promotion-chasing side, and boosted by the Barnsley (TWO RED CARDS) game big-time

Away from home it's worse.

2-0
4-2
3-1
0-0
1-1


L3 D2 4-10 Not in a million years is that (results-wise) "mixing it with the big boys"

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Re: Where do we go from here 21/22 season?

by Snowflake Royal » 12 Apr 2021 12:14

Stranded
Snowball I love this RDG team but not sure how we can say thy have a great attitude
when in almost every game they've gone behind they've lost, and often
when we concede 1 we conceded 2 or 3. BMTH, Preston, Stoke, Boro, for example.

I think we are mentally frail, and we still need a nasty leader.

In our favour, was surprised to hear we have the third-youngest squad in the league
so next year we will be more mature


Unfortunately, there is still a decent amount of players here who were used to losing more often than not and that shows when we go a goal down - we really need to work on the squad mentally regardless of where we end up next season.

You mention our record against the top clubs and I think that (along with relatively poor record against the bottom 3 or 4) shows where we stand at the moment, we are probably amongst the best of the rest as we seem to pick up the majority of our points from the clubs around the 10th to 18th mark.

Our run at the beginning of the season has allowed us to be on the fringes of the play-offs rather than around the 10th spot the current mentality issues with trailing in games, should see us.

As said on another post, if you look at the 7 wins in 8 we got at the beginning, only Watford was really a shock and we were "lucky" that those fixtures fell as they did. If say the Bournemouth (a) game and the Watford (H) as well as say the Rotherham and Coventry games, then we would be in the same spot now (following an identical record after 12 games) but people would be more accepting of us being not potentially being quite good enough but because 7 wins came in a compressed run at the top, it just feels like a wasted opportunity to many, understandably, when this season is about progress - we will finish the year minimum 10 points better than last, more likely 15-20 better. If we can repeat that progress next year, we'll be laughing - or this year, like Stam's play-off year, is the blip and we go back to struggling.

All the more reason to just enjoy it.

The score first win, concede first lose seems widely spread in the league.

I think this is where the fans can make the difference, lifting the players to greater urgency and belief.

I also think, for all his positive qualities, Moore is not a good on field captain, and doesn't organise and focus the defence well. I think that comes from the flaws in his game that see him having to regularly recover by throwing his body in the way (brilliantly) because of weak positioning and organisation.

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