Have performances really been that bad? A statistical performative analysis. *FYI may contain stats*

[WestYorksRoyal]

I'd be interested to know how often stats and feelings on performances misalign. We're not having much attacking possession or taking many shots. Well I could have told you that.

You generally know how good a team is by watching as a fan. You may have style preference; for example I'd choose a high pressing Klopp team over Pep tiki-taka. But I can still acknowledge that Pep teams are excellent.

Statistics are useful to the professionals in finding insights that can make a critical difference over a similarly matched team. But they can't convince fans that what they're seeing is different from what their eyes are telling them. We've been a mediocre L1 team on the pitch with a decent league position because we were winning key moments earlier in the season. I don't need stats to tell me that, and I don't think they can convince be otherwise either.

[Brogue]

I'd be interested to know how often stats and feelings on performances misalign. We're not having much attacking possession or taking many shots. Well I could have told you that.

You generally know how good a team is by watching as a fan. You may have style preference; for example I'd choose a high pressing Klopp team over Pep tiki-taka. But I can still acknowledge that Pep teams are excellent.

Statistics are useful to the professionals in finding insights that can make a critical difference over a similarly matched team. But they can't convince fans that what they're seeing is different from what their eyes are telling them. We've been a mediocre L1 team on the pitch with a decent league position because we were winning key moments earlier in the season. I don't need stats to tell me that, and I don't think they can convince be otherwise either.

absolutley. i wonder what the stats looked like under Stam.

[stealthpapes]

I get the feeling we basically have a Cat 1.5 academy.

We went quite deep into it (both academy and squad fringes) trying to get by the last two seasons.

Big Kelv shouldn’t ever have as many games as he does, but it’s where we are now.

Garcia was brought through early, he’s not the only one.

So, this season is (hopefully) an adjustment, it shouldn’t be a long term trend.

[stealthpapes]

Reading fans: academy is expensive, what if we spend the money on getting promoted?

Also Reading fans: I don’t like these older players and loanees coming into the squad.

[WestYorksRoyal]

I think what we're doing with the academy now in terms of using loans and cups is more suitable and what we did in recent years was a reflection of desperate measures.

Let's look at who broke through in that time (I'm treating those signed as inexperienced youngsters like Bindon, Wareham and Patton like academy products, even if they're not completely home grown).

Stickland and Holzman - way way off and it showed.

Kanu and Ahmed - Not ready and getting NL experience

Abrefa - Jury out. He won't make it here, but I wouldn't be surprised if he forges a solid L1 career.

Camara - there is no way a player of his quality should have had such a big role in a L1 squad.

Kelvin E - the big enigma. I don't know what to say. But perhaps an opportunity to play his formative years in NL/L2 would have benefited him

Vickers - hardly set the world alight since leaving. And ultimately brought in revenue which is an academy success.

Garcia - Similar to above. He's playing in the youth team at Brugge, and I don't think he was really ready for men's football.

Abbey & Bindon - The star players and big success stories.

You'd hope that even with more budget, we'd find a way of giving the likes of Abbey and Bindon a proper chance. I don't know how good Duah currently is for example, but he could be a potential EFL cup option.

But big picture, we went "all in" on our academy as we had no choice and were only ever 2 or 3 injuries off playing the likes of Camara, Garcia and Stickland. That is no recipe for promotion.

I'd happily send Patton back on loan and get in a short term option for next season. Then hopefully by 27/28 Patton's loan experience makes him ready for a big role.

[Clyde1998]

I get the feeling we basically have a Cat 1.5 academy.

There was a Q&A outside the stadium before the game in which Couhig was complaining about spending around £200k per month on the academy (so about £2.5m per year).

Aston Villa are the only club I'm aware of who list their youth expenditure in their annual accounts. In 2024-25, they spend £26.179m (up from £19.735m). I imagine clubs like Arsenal and especially Chelsea are above that level.

Different clubs will calculate this in different ways, but does show the gulf in expenditure we're dealing with.

[CountryRoyal]

welcome back to the board country royal i hope your health has improved

Thank you Sir. Life is different now but we move.

I don’t remember ever consciously missing games before, be it going, watching or at the very least, listening. I’ve purposely not watched the last two games because I just can’t stomach it anymore. It’s a waste of a day.

For as long as I can remember I’d look forward to whenever we were playing regardless of how well we were doing, but that’s shifted in recent months and I no longer want to endure whatever shit is shoved down our throats and to be told it’s tasty.

I know extreme but I had goosebumps listening to the late stages of the Rochdale v York game, the only physiological response I get from Reading is incessant yawning and eye-rolling. Too apathetic for anger, just the hopeless resignation of: “yep.”

Hopefully the break will help and by the time the World Cup and next season’s fixture list release comes round, my passion will once again be reignited.

It’s difficult because I don’t think chopping and changing managers is the answer but we’re second best in pretty much every game, we’ve gotten worse, I think the squad is underperforming and LR hasn’t shown signs of adapting and pliability. Was the goal this season to finish in the top 10? If so we may still yet fail in that. A lot was made about RC & co over promising but the soundbites pre season all suggested intention. Even LR gaslighting us with his preferred style of play, front foot, attacking football. Do me a favour.

We need to return to the championship asap. We’re in a real danger of getting left behind imho. Our pièce de résistance is our academy and we can’t sustain it at this level. We’re still a big club for league one but I’d suggest a club of our size would now very much be a mid-lower sized and placed club in the second division.

We’re quickly losing our identity that we had built over the last 25 or so years, riding the wave of the new stadium, promotion and then 106. 3 prem seasons and a long stay in champ establishing ourselves as mid sized, top half championship club that predominantly challenged and had ambitions and aspirations of growth. (Recognising that was half the problem when the method of trying to realise those ambitions was destructive)

The reality is we’re not a big club and we don’t have a big fan base, realistically this won’t change short of doing a Birmingham or Wrexham or an extended stay in the prem which seems like a pipe dream atm.

Our average gates in the second tier are probably somewhere around 17-18k which is fairly mid table but these days probably towards the bottom.

We’re about 5k off that in league one and losing about 500 each season.

There’s an argument to be made we’re probably at our level, which I guess traditionally, makes sense. So do we want to accept that and fall back into that identity? Or try and be plucky Reading again that over performs? I’d prefer the latter but certainly not at the expense of the financial stability of the club.

Don’t think either has to come at the expense of entertainment though.

Unlike Stamball, which was dryer than a granny’s fanny, the style worked for us and we mostly controlled games by keeping the ball. We don’t seem to have a style it’s just be really bad on the edge of our own box and don’t try to attack.

I don’t see how we see any success with the turgid anti-football we have.

[fred sharpes nose]

Why don't you get your new mate Ramy to pose that question at his next presser with the club? Make sure he says the full list before letting Leam reply

I’m already working with him on a few things such as the actual performance of the cat one academy, which I’m hearing is in doubt of remaining as such so I’ve given a list of questions.

‘’ If you are interested in the RFCs so called Cat 1 academy, ask the right questions to the academy management

1. Academy Graduate Definition and Tracking
•Could you provide data on the number of players who have progressed through the academy from U9 level onwards, excluding those who joined at later stages (e.g., U15/U16) from other clubs?
•How does the academy internally define and track a “graduate”?

2. Staffing Structure and Resources
•As a Category 1 academy, what is the current ratio of full-time to part-time staff (including coaching, sports science, and medical personnel)?
•What is the rationale behind the current staffing model, particularly the reliance on part-time roles?

3. Competitive Programme and International Exposure
•What opportunities are provided for international fixtures or tournaments across age groups?
•If limited, are there plans to expand international exposure in line with other Category 1 academies?

4. Early Recruitment and Development Pathway
•Over the past five years, how many scholars (U16–U18) have been developed within the academy from U9–U11 age groups?
•To what extent does the academy rely on recruiting players developed by other clubs at later stages?

5. Player Progression and First-Team Impact
•How many academy graduates have accumulated significant first-team minutes for Reading F.C. or other League One clubs following transfer?
•How is “success” measured in terms of player progression into senior football?

6. Staff Retention and Recruitment
•There appears to have been movement of coaching staff to clubs such as Chelsea F.C., Brentford F.C., and Southampton F.C.. What are the primary reasons for this turnover?
•What strategies are in place to retain high-performing staff and ensure continuity in coaching quality?
•How are replacement hires evaluated, particularly when appointing part-time staff?

7. Integration with First Team
•What is the current pathway for U15/U16 players to train with the first team?
•How does this compare to practices at other Category 1 academies, such as Arsenal F.C. and Chelsea F.C.?
•If opportunities are limited, what are the key barriers—player readiness, coaching approach, or structural considerations?

8. Financial Investment vs Output
•What is the annual investment into the academy programme?
•How is return on investment measured, specifically in relation to players developed internally (from younger age groups) contributing to the first team, rather than those recruited at later stages?

9. If we are purely relying on boys released by other Cat 1 academies, who do we need to spend money on our academy especially between the pre academy and u14 programme ? Instead use that money on first team and get back to championship. Once we are a settled championship club, start the academy property (coaches, quantity staff etc) ‘’

This is an excellent thread I stumbled across while I was trying to research the different approaches between the "new era of academies" vs the older style - grass roots scouting > trials for promising lads to become YTS > a proper all age group reserve team eg Football Combination> First team squad (approx 18-20 players).

Life seemed simpler then eg a first team keeper reserve team keeper and maybe a YTS keeper. Biggest change also is increase in First team match places 12>15>18 .

It does seem crazy to me a mid table Leauge One with such a vast overall playing and coaching set up.

I think points 8 and 9 are very interesting eg if it the set up costs for example purposes £1m each year how is the payback calculated. Surely the whole enterprise should be operating at a break even level as a minimum otherwise what is the point. Sure the first "pro contract" is going to be less than for an established say 22 -24 year old say 25K vs 50k ?- but mulling around the maths looks like its an impossible task to break even. Of course the once in a blue moon Olise type player tilts the balance, and of course there will be fallow and productive years, but it would be very interesting to see the rolling 5 and 10 year period P&L since the Academy started as a replacement to the "old fashined way"

I am not Rob Couhig btw

[Brogue]

Why don't you get your new mate Ramy to pose that question at his next presser with the club? Make sure he says the full list before letting Leam reply

I’m already working with him on a few things such as the actual performance of the cat one academy, which I’m hearing is in doubt of remaining as such so I’ve given a list of questions.

‘’ If you are interested in the RFCs so called Cat 1 academy, ask the right questions to the academy management

1. Academy Graduate Definition and Tracking
•Could you provide data on the number of players who have progressed through the academy from U9 level onwards, excluding those who joined at later stages (e.g., U15/U16) from other clubs?
•How does the academy internally define and track a “graduate”?

2. Staffing Structure and Resources
•As a Category 1 academy, what is the current ratio of full-time to part-time staff (including coaching, sports science, and medical personnel)?
•What is the rationale behind the current staffing model, particularly the reliance on part-time roles?

3. Competitive Programme and International Exposure
•What opportunities are provided for international fixtures or tournaments across age groups?
•If limited, are there plans to expand international exposure in line with other Category 1 academies?

4. Early Recruitment and Development Pathway
•Over the past five years, how many scholars (U16–U18) have been developed within the academy from U9–U11 age groups?
•To what extent does the academy rely on recruiting players developed by other clubs at later stages?

5. Player Progression and First-Team Impact
•How many academy graduates have accumulated significant first-team minutes for Reading F.C. or other League One clubs following transfer?
•How is “success” measured in terms of player progression into senior football?

6. Staff Retention and Recruitment
•There appears to have been movement of coaching staff to clubs such as Chelsea F.C., Brentford F.C., and Southampton F.C.. What are the primary reasons for this turnover?
•What strategies are in place to retain high-performing staff and ensure continuity in coaching quality?
•How are replacement hires evaluated, particularly when appointing part-time staff?

7. Integration with First Team
•What is the current pathway for U15/U16 players to train with the first team?
•How does this compare to practices at other Category 1 academies, such as Arsenal F.C. and Chelsea F.C.?
•If opportunities are limited, what are the key barriers—player readiness, coaching approach, or structural considerations?

8. Financial Investment vs Output
•What is the annual investment into the academy programme?
•How is return on investment measured, specifically in relation to players developed internally (from younger age groups) contributing to the first team, rather than those recruited at later stages?

9. If we are purely relying on boys released by other Cat 1 academies, who do we need to spend money on our academy especially between the pre academy and u14 programme ? Instead use that money on first team and get back to championship. Once we are a settled championship club, start the academy property (coaches, quantity staff etc) ‘’

This is an excellent thread I stumbled across while I was trying to research the different approaches between the "new era of academies" vs the older style - grass roots scouting > trials for promising lads to become YTS > a proper all age group reserve team eg Football Combination> First team squad (approx 18-20 players).

Life seemed simpler then eg a first team keeper reserve team keeper and maybe a YTS keeper. Biggest change also is increase in First team match places 12>15>18 .

It does seem crazy to me a mid table Leauge One with such a vast overall playing and coaching set up.

I think points 8 and 9 are very interesting eg if it the set up costs for example purposes £1m each year how is the payback calculated. Surely the whole enterprise should be operating at a break even level as a minimum otherwise what is the point. Sure the first "pro contract" is going to be less than for an established say 22 -24 year old say 25K vs 50k ?- but mulling around the maths looks like its an impossible task to break even. Of course the once in a blue moon Olise type player tilts the balance, and of course there will be fallow and productive years, but it would be very interesting to see the rolling 5 and 10 year period P&L since the Academy started as a replacement to the "old fashined way"

I am not Rob Couhig btw

It’s just so difficult to work out the numbers, especially as income from academy products we’ve sold comes in dribs and drabs, over long periods. See Gittens as an example sold in 2018 signs for Chelsea in 2025. 7 years after, we receive a payment.

Olise could win the champions league, we will get money from that. Sold 5 years ago in 2021.

Femi azeez we have a 20% sell on. Millwall turned down a record bid for him in Jan. Millwall record sale is Romain Esse for 15 mill. He will likely go for 20 mill plus. Which would be a 4 mill windfall for us, 3 years after we sold him.

I’m sure the club are keeping tally of these things. And it probably needs to be looked at over a longer period rather than season to season. I think we would need to look at all the money we received over the last 10 years vs Cost to run the academy in that time frame. Which should give the owners an idea of whether it’s actually economical viable to run. If you’re only looking back at the last couple of seasons it’s not giving the full picture.

[Clyde1998]

I’m already working with him on a few things such as the actual performance of the cat one academy, which I’m hearing is in doubt of remaining as such so I’ve given a list of questions.

‘’ If you are interested in the RFCs so called Cat 1 academy, ask the right questions to the academy management

1. Academy Graduate Definition and Tracking
•Could you provide data on the number of players who have progressed through the academy from U9 level onwards, excluding those who joined at later stages (e.g., U15/U16) from other clubs?
•How does the academy internally define and track a “graduate”?

2. Staffing Structure and Resources
•As a Category 1 academy, what is the current ratio of full-time to part-time staff (including coaching, sports science, and medical personnel)?
•What is the rationale behind the current staffing model, particularly the reliance on part-time roles?

3. Competitive Programme and International Exposure
•What opportunities are provided for international fixtures or tournaments across age groups?
•If limited, are there plans to expand international exposure in line with other Category 1 academies?

4. Early Recruitment and Development Pathway
•Over the past five years, how many scholars (U16–U18) have been developed within the academy from U9–U11 age groups?
•To what extent does the academy rely on recruiting players developed by other clubs at later stages?

5. Player Progression and First-Team Impact
•How many academy graduates have accumulated significant first-team minutes for Reading F.C. or other League One clubs following transfer?
•How is “success” measured in terms of player progression into senior football?

6. Staff Retention and Recruitment
•There appears to have been movement of coaching staff to clubs such as Chelsea F.C., Brentford F.C., and Southampton F.C.. What are the primary reasons for this turnover?
•What strategies are in place to retain high-performing staff and ensure continuity in coaching quality?
•How are replacement hires evaluated, particularly when appointing part-time staff?

7. Integration with First Team
•What is the current pathway for U15/U16 players to train with the first team?
•How does this compare to practices at other Category 1 academies, such as Arsenal F.C. and Chelsea F.C.?
•If opportunities are limited, what are the key barriers—player readiness, coaching approach, or structural considerations?

8. Financial Investment vs Output
•What is the annual investment into the academy programme?
•How is return on investment measured, specifically in relation to players developed internally (from younger age groups) contributing to the first team, rather than those recruited at later stages?

9. If we are purely relying on boys released by other Cat 1 academies, who do we need to spend money on our academy especially between the pre academy and u14 programme ? Instead use that money on first team and get back to championship. Once we are a settled championship club, start the academy property (coaches, quantity staff etc) ‘’

This is an excellent thread I stumbled across while I was trying to research the different approaches between the "new era of academies" vs the older style - grass roots scouting > trials for promising lads to become YTS > a proper all age group reserve team eg Football Combination> First team squad (approx 18-20 players).

Life seemed simpler then eg a first team keeper reserve team keeper and maybe a YTS keeper. Biggest change also is increase in First team match places 12>15>18 .

It does seem crazy to me a mid table Leauge One with such a vast overall playing and coaching set up.

I think points 8 and 9 are very interesting eg if it the set up costs for example purposes £1m each year how is the payback calculated. Surely the whole enterprise should be operating at a break even level as a minimum otherwise what is the point. Sure the first "pro contract" is going to be less than for an established say 22 -24 year old say 25K vs 50k ?- but mulling around the maths looks like its an impossible task to break even. Of course the once in a blue moon Olise type player tilts the balance, and of course there will be fallow and productive years, but it would be very interesting to see the rolling 5 and 10 year period P&L since the Academy started as a replacement to the "old fashined way"

I am not Rob Couhig btw

It’s just so difficult to work out the numbers, especially as income from academy products we’ve sold comes in dribs and drabs, over long periods. See Gittens as an example sold in 2018 signs for Chelsea in 2025. 7 years after, we receive a payment.

Olise could win the champions league, we will get money from that. Sold 5 years ago in 2021.

Femi azeez we have a 20% sell on. Millwall turned down a record bid for him in Jan. Millwall record sale is Romain Esse for 15 mill. He will likely go for 20 mill plus. Which would be a 4 mill windfall for us, 3 years after we sold him.

I’m sure the club are keeping tally of these things. And it probably needs to be looked at over a longer period rather than season to season. I think we would need to look at all the money we received over the last 10 years vs Cost to run the academy in that time frame. Which should give the owners an idea of whether it’s actually economical viable to run. If you’re only looking back at the last couple of seasons it’s not giving the full picture.

One thing I don't like is Couhig complaining about the academy (or that's how it comes across as that to me) using words to the effect of 'the academy is costing us about £200k per month'.

The academy is not a cost, it's an investment. Costs should be minimised, investments maximised where possible.

Expenditure on the academy provides long term benefits shown above. That also doesn't take into account the time academy graduates spend in the first team (reducing the need to buy first team players) and their initial lower wages when they first come through.

If we've had a consistent spend of £2.5m p/a since the EPPP become active in 2012-13, we would've spent £35m total on the academy. We've probably recovered that simply in transfer fees without any consideration of other benefits.

[fred sharpes nose]

This is an excellent thread I stumbled across while I was trying to research the different approaches between the "new era of academies" vs the older style - grass roots scouting > trials for promising lads to become YTS > a proper all age group reserve team eg Football Combination> First team squad (approx 18-20 players).

Life seemed simpler then eg a first team keeper reserve team keeper and maybe a YTS keeper. Biggest change also is increase in First team match places 12>15>18 .

It does seem crazy to me a mid table Leauge One with such a vast overall playing and coaching set up.

I think points 8 and 9 are very interesting eg if it the set up costs for example purposes £1m each year how is the payback calculated. Surely the whole enterprise should be operating at a break even level as a minimum otherwise what is the point. Sure the first "pro contract" is going to be less than for an established say 22 -24 year old say 25K vs 50k ?- but mulling around the maths looks like its an impossible task to break even. Of course the once in a blue moon Olise type player tilts the balance, and of course there will be fallow and productive years, but it would be very interesting to see the rolling 5 and 10 year period P&L since the Academy started as a replacement to the "old fashined way"

I am not Rob Couhig btw

It’s just so difficult to work out the numbers, especially as income from academy products we’ve sold comes in dribs and drabs, over long periods. See Gittens as an example sold in 2018 signs for Chelsea in 2025. 7 years after, we receive a payment.

Olise could win the champions league, we will get money from that. Sold 5 years ago in 2021.

Femi azeez we have a 20% sell on. Millwall turned down a record bid for him in Jan. Millwall record sale is Romain Esse for 15 mill. He will likely go for 20 mill plus. Which would be a 4 mill windfall for us, 3 years after we sold him.

I’m sure the club are keeping tally of these things. And it probably needs to be looked at over a longer period rather than season to season. I think we would need to look at all the money we received over the last 10 years vs Cost to run the academy in that time frame. Which should give the owners an idea of whether it’s actually economical viable to run. If you’re only looking back at the last couple of seasons it’s not giving the full picture.

One thing I don't like is Couhig complaining about the academy (or that's how it comes across as that to me) using words to the effect of 'the academy is costing us about £200k per month'.

The academy is not a cost, it's an investment. Costs should be minimised, investments maximised where possible.

Expenditure on the academy provides long term benefits shown above. That also doesn't take into account the time academy graduates spend in the first team (reducing the need to buy first team players) and their initial lower wages when they first come through.

It’s just so difficult to work out the numbers, especially as income from academy products we’ve sold comes in dribs and drabs, over long periods. See Gittens as an example sold in 2018 signs for Chelsea in 2025. 7 years after, we receive a payment.

Olise could win the champions league, we will get money from that. Sold 5 years ago in 2021.

Femi azeez we have a 20% sell on. Millwall turned down a record bid for him in Jan. Millwall record sale is Romain Esse for 15 mill. He will likely go for 20 mill plus. Which would be a 4 mill windfall for us, 3 years after we sold him.

I’m sure the club are keeping tally of these things. And it probably needs to be looked at over a longer period rather than season to season. I think we would need to look at all the money we received over the last 10 years vs Cost to run the academy in that time frame. Which should give the owners an idea of whether it’s actually economical viable to run. If you’re only looking back at the last couple of seasons it’s not giving the full picture.

One thing I don't like is Couhig complaining about the academy (or that's how it comes across as that to me) using words to the effect of 'the academy is costing us about £200k per month'.

The academy is not a cost, it's an investment. Costs should be minimised, investments maximised where possible.

Expenditure on the academy provides long term benefits shown above. That also doesn't take into account the time academy graduates spend in the first team (reducing the need to buy first team players) and their initial lower wages when they first come through.

If we've had a consistent spend of £2.5m p/a since the EPPP become active in 2012-13, we would've spent £35m total on the academy. We've probably recovered that simply in transfer fees without any consideration of other benefits.

If we've had a consistent spend of £2.5m p/a since the EPPP become active in 2012-13, we would've spent £35m total on the academy. We've probably recovered that simply in transfer fees without any consideration of other benefits.

Thats a sensible starting point - no doubt cleverer Nobbers than myself can compile a list of all the transfers out with an assessment of fee (and recurring fees) by year (14 years total) to generate a rolling 5 and 10 year P&L view. Be a time consuming but interesting exercise. Can't recall many of the big transfers plus the "kids" who go early with future sell on no doubt harder to track. Woud like to think also that the number crunchers at the club have the exact figures to hand (including also the total number of players through the system at each year group highlighting just how hard it is for a player to "make it")

[Clyde1998]

If we've had a consistent spend of £2.5m p/a since the EPPP become active in 2012-13, we would've spent £35m total on the academy. We've probably recovered that simply in transfer fees without any consideration of other benefits.

Thats a sensible starting point - no doubt cleverer Nobbers than myself can compile a list of all the transfers out with an assessment of fee (and recurring fees) by year (14 years total) to generate a rolling 5 and 10 year P&L view. Be a time consuming but interesting exercise. Can't recall many of the big transfers plus the "kids" who go early with future sell on no doubt harder to track. Woud like to think also that the number crunchers at the club have the exact figures to hand (including also the total number of players through the system at each year group highlighting just how hard it is for a player to "make it")

I made a list previously which I’ll have to dig out, but some quick calculations on players in that time suggests at least £25m in direct fees, plus the £5m sell-on from Olise.

That’s only considering players we have a reported fee (or reasonable estimate) for.

I didn’t take into account any potential sell-ons (except for the mentioned Olise one); solidarity fees; nor someone like Sam Smith who returned to the club before getting sold again.

There are also cases of teenagers going from Reading to another club, which will have a transfer fee under EPPP (often unreported). Perhaps it’s only £50k/£100k a pop, but it’s still something and adds up if there’s an average of three per season.

My estimates for transfer fees are probably on the low side too. I seem to recall a fans forum (was he still academy manager?) where Hunt said we made over £5m that season in academy graduate sales, but my figures only suggest up to £3m that season.

This is all without getting into the scenario of players like Omar Richards and Danny Loader leaving the club for nothing when a viably run club would’ve ensured we got something for them, especially as we received a sizeable bid for Loader.

Doesn't consider our reduced negotiating leverage in recent seasons due to our financial situation either reducing potential fees.

That’s just the direct financial side. Maybe something to keep me busy in the summer break?

[Clyde1998]

I had some time, so...

The transfer fees I think we've received for various academy players since EPPP came in (start of 2012-13):

Code: Select all

Season	Player				To		Fee		TM-Estimate*
2014-15	McCarthy, Alex			QPR		£ 2,000,000	
2015-16	Dvali, Lasha			MSV Duisburg	        ???
2015-16	Hector, Michael			Chelsea		£ 4,000,000	
2015-16	Taylor, Jake			Exeter		£   200,000	Yes
2016-17	Tshibola, Aaron			Aston Villa	£ 5,000,000
2016-17	Semedo, Lisandro		AEZ Zakakiou	        ???
2016-17	Collins, Billy			Brighton	        ???
2016-17	Capkin, Anil			Bonner SC	        ???
2016-17	Griffin, Shane			Cork		        ???
2016-17	Scheving, Sindri		Valur		        ???
2017-18	Fosu, Tariqe			Charlton	£    25,000	Yes
2017-18	Jules, Zak			Shrewsbury	£    50,000	Yes
2017-18	Stacey, Jack			Luton		        ???
2017-18	Keown, Niall			Partick		£    25,000	Yes
2017-18	Samuel, Dominic			Blackburn	£   500,000
2017-18	Cooper, Jake			Millwall	£   400,000
2017-18	Dickie, Robert			Oxford		        ???
2018-19	Andresson, Axel			Viking		£   150,000	Yes
2019-20	Ward, Lewis			Exeter		        ???
2019-20	Hillson, James			Arsenal		        ???
2019-20	Kelly, Liam			Feyenoord	£   500,000	Yes
2019-20	Desbois, Adam			Brighton	        ???
2019-20	Novakovich, Andrija		Frosinone	£   750,000	Yes
2019-20	Barret, Josh			Bristol Rovers	£   150,000	Yes
2019-20	Nolan, Jack			Walsall		        ???
2019-20	Roberts, Myles			Watford		        ???
2019-20	Howe, Teddy			Blackpool	£    75,000	Yes
2020-21	Holsgrove, Jordan		Celta Vigo	£   100,000	Yes
2021-22	Nevers, Thierry			West Ham	£   500,000
2021-22	Olise, Michael			Crystal Palace	£ 8,370,000
2021-22	Dunbar-McDonald, Christian	Man City	        ???
2021-22	Samuels, Imari			Brighton	£    75,000	Yes
2023-24	Fletcher, Luca			Man City	£   650,000
2023-24	Rohart-Brown, Thierry		Southampton	        ???
2023-24	Jambang-Brown, Ayyuba		Ipswich		        ???
2023-24	Semakula, Eliah			Chelsea		        ???
2023-24	Frederick, Cameron		Southampton	        ???
2023-24	Homes, Tom			Luton		£   400,000
2023-24	Abbey, Nelson			Olympiacos	£   200,000
2023-24	McIntyre, Tom			Portsmouth	£    75,000
2023-24	Vickers, Caylan			Brighton	£   250,000
2023-24	Harris, Taylan			Luton		£    50,000
2024-25	Giscombe, Naeem			Brentford	        ???
2024-25	Mpofu, Cameron			Man Utd		        ???
2025-26	Garcia, Andre			Club Brugge	£   350,000
Total							£22,845,000

*Estimate is taken as half of the TransferMarkt value of the player at the time of the transfer.

The reported sell-on fees we've received in that time (we would've received payments from a lot more transfers):

Code: Select all

Season	Player				From		To		Fee		Received	Share
2019-20	Stacey, Jack			Luton		Bournemouth	£ 4,000,000	£ 1,200,000	30%
2019-20	Hector, Michael			Chelsea		Fulham		£ 8,000,000	£ 2,000,000	25%
2024-25	Olise, Michael			Crystal Palace	Bayern		£50,800,000	£ 5,080,000	10%
Total											£ 8,280,000

Adding the two together, that's £31.125m with plenty of gaps, especially in sell-on fees. I've probably missed some players too.

The gaps in direct fees are where I believe we would have received some fee for those players, but can't find a reasonable estimate. There are twenty of these. If we averaged £25,000 for them, we would've received an additional £500,000.

It's worth remembering also, the club's definition of an academy player is anyone who played for the U18s or younger. Players like Femi Azeez and Michael Craig don't count as academy players under that definition and so I haven't included in these calculations.

I haven't included Sam Smith being sold to Wrexham in 2024-25 for £2m either, due to us having re-signed him prior to that move.

Simply in terms of transfer fees, we're looking at a net expenditure-neutral operation at worst based on the £2.5m expenditure per season.

[bakerlou]

I've probably missed some players too.

If we got a sell-on from Gylfi signing for Spurs from Hoffenheim, then he's in that timescale.

I think.

[AthleticoSpizz]

Millwall are still getting good value for their £400k

[Schards#2]

welcome back to the board country royal i hope your health has improved

Thank you Sir. Life is different now but we move.

I don’t remember ever consciously missing games before, be it going, watching or at the very least, listening. I’ve purposely not watched the last two games because I just can’t stomach it anymore. It’s a waste of a day.

For as long as I can remember I’d look forward to whenever we were playing regardless of how well we were doing, but that’s shifted in recent months and I no longer want to endure whatever shit is shoved down our throats and to be told it’s tasty.

I know extreme but I had goosebumps listening to the late stages of the Rochdale v York game, the only physiological response I get from Reading is incessant yawning and eye-rolling. Too apathetic for anger, just the hopeless resignation of: “yep.”

Hopefully the break will help and by the time the World Cup and next season’s fixture list release comes round, my passion will once again be reignited.

It’s difficult because I don’t think chopping and changing managers is the answer but we’re second best in pretty much every game, we’ve gotten worse, I think the squad is underperforming and LR hasn’t shown signs of adapting and pliability. Was the goal this season to finish in the top 10? If so we may still yet fail in that. A lot was made about RC & co over promising but the soundbites pre season all suggested intention. Even LR gaslighting us with his preferred style of play, front foot, attacking football. Do me a favour.

We need to return to the championship asap. We’re in a real danger of getting left behind imho. Our pièce de résistance is our academy and we can’t sustain it at this level. We’re still a big club for league one but I’d suggest a club of our size would now very much be a mid-lower sized and placed club in the second division.

We’re quickly losing our identity that we had built over the last 25 or so years, riding the wave of the new stadium, promotion and then 106. 3 prem seasons and a long stay in champ establishing ourselves as mid sized, top half championship club that predominantly challenged and had ambitions and aspirations of growth. (Recognising that was half the problem when the method of trying to realise those ambitions was destructive)

The reality is we’re not a big club and we don’t have a big fan base, realistically this won’t change short of doing a Birmingham or Wrexham or an extended stay in the prem which seems like a pipe dream atm.

Our average gates in the second tier are probably somewhere around 17-18k which is fairly mid table but these days probably towards the bottom.

We’re about 5k off that in league one and losing about 500 each season.

There’s an argument to be made we’re probably at our level, which I guess traditionally, makes sense. So do we want to accept that and fall back into that identity? Or try and be plucky Reading again that over performs? I’d prefer the latter but certainly not at the expense of the financial stability of the club.

Don’t think either has to come at the expense of entertainment though.

Unlike Stamball, which was dryer than a granny’s fanny, the style worked for us and we mostly controlled games by keeping the ball. We don’t seem to have a style it’s just be really bad on the edge of our own box and don’t try to attack.

I don’t see how we see any success with the turgid anti-football we have.

I can completely relate to your mindset. I've been a season ticket holder since the previous century but am not going to games at the moment and, like you, don't even follow them remotely, I just cannot stand what is being served up any more. Engaging with Reading FC at the moment is not an enjoyable experience and the fact that Couhig a) backs Richardson and b) is a stubborn bastard, means this will not change for the forseeable future.

The club would have died under Dai Youngge but, to my mind, it is in an induced coma under Couhig. Hopefully one day it will wake up and find its identity again.

[blythspartan]

welcome back to the board country royal i hope your health has improved

Thank you Sir. Life is different now but we move.

I don’t remember ever consciously missing games before, be it going, watching or at the very least, listening. I’ve purposely not watched the last two games because I just can’t stomach it anymore. It’s a waste of a day.

For as long as I can remember I’d look forward to whenever we were playing regardless of how well we were doing, but that’s shifted in recent months and I no longer want to endure whatever shit is shoved down our throats and to be told it’s tasty.

I know extreme but I had goosebumps listening to the late stages of the Rochdale v York game, the only physiological response I get from Reading is incessant yawning and eye-rolling. Too apathetic for anger, just the hopeless resignation of: “yep.”

Hopefully the break will help and by the time the World Cup and next season’s fixture list release comes round, my passion will once again be reignited.

It’s difficult because I don’t think chopping and changing managers is the answer but we’re second best in pretty much every game, we’ve gotten worse, I think the squad is underperforming and LR hasn’t shown signs of adapting and pliability. Was the goal this season to finish in the top 10? If so we may still yet fail in that. A lot was made about RC & co over promising but the soundbites pre season all suggested intention. Even LR gaslighting us with his preferred style of play, front foot, attacking football. Do me a favour.

We need to return to the championship asap. We’re in a real danger of getting left behind imho. Our pièce de résistance is our academy and we can’t sustain it at this level. We’re still a big club for league one but I’d suggest a club of our size would now very much be a mid-lower sized and placed club in the second division.

We’re quickly losing our identity that we had built over the last 25 or so years, riding the wave of the new stadium, promotion and then 106. 3 prem seasons and a long stay in champ establishing ourselves as mid sized, top half championship club that predominantly challenged and had ambitions and aspirations of growth. (Recognising that was half the problem when the method of trying to realise those ambitions was destructive)

The reality is we’re not a big club and we don’t have a big fan base, realistically this won’t change short of doing a Birmingham or Wrexham or an extended stay in the prem which seems like a pipe dream atm.

Our average gates in the second tier are probably somewhere around 17-18k which is fairly mid table but these days probably towards the bottom.

We’re about 5k off that in league one and losing about 500 each season.

There’s an argument to be made we’re probably at our level, which I guess traditionally, makes sense. So do we want to accept that and fall back into that identity? Or try and be plucky Reading again that over performs? I’d prefer the latter but certainly not at the expense of the financial stability of the club.

Don’t think either has to come at the expense of entertainment though.

Unlike Stamball, which was dryer than a granny’s fanny, the style worked for us and we mostly controlled games by keeping the ball. We don’t seem to have a style it’s just be really bad on the edge of our own box and don’t try to attack.

I don’t see how we see any success with the turgid anti-football we have.

I can completely relate to your mindset. I've been a season ticket holder since the previous century but am not going to games at the moment and, like you, don't even follow them remotely, I just cannot stand what is being served up any more. Engaging with Reading FC at the moment is not an enjoyable experience and the fact that Couhig a) backs Richardson and b) is a stubborn bastard, means this will not change for the forseeable future.

The club would have died under Dai Youngge but, to my mind, it is in an induced coma under Couhig. Hopefully one day it will wake up and find its identity again.

This perfectly sums up how I feel.

[MR. CYNICAL]

Thank you Sir. Life is different now but we move.

I don’t remember ever consciously missing games before, be it going, watching or at the very least, listening. I’ve purposely not watched the last two games because I just can’t stomach it anymore. It’s a waste of a day.

For as long as I can remember I’d look forward to whenever we were playing regardless of how well we were doing, but that’s shifted in recent months and I no longer want to endure whatever shit is shoved down our throats and to be told it’s tasty.

I know extreme but I had goosebumps listening to the late stages of the Rochdale v York game, the only physiological response I get from Reading is incessant yawning and eye-rolling. Too apathetic for anger, just the hopeless resignation of: “yep.”

Hopefully the break will help and by the time the World Cup and next season’s fixture list release comes round, my passion will once again be reignited.

It’s difficult because I don’t think chopping and changing managers is the answer but we’re second best in pretty much every game, we’ve gotten worse, I think the squad is underperforming and LR hasn’t shown signs of adapting and pliability. Was the goal this season to finish in the top 10? If so we may still yet fail in that. A lot was made about RC & co over promising but the soundbites pre season all suggested intention. Even LR gaslighting us with his preferred style of play, front foot, attacking football. Do me a favour.

We need to return to the championship asap. We’re in a real danger of getting left behind imho. Our pièce de résistance is our academy and we can’t sustain it at this level. We’re still a big club for league one but I’d suggest a club of our size would now very much be a mid-lower sized and placed club in the second division.

We’re quickly losing our identity that we had built over the last 25 or so years, riding the wave of the new stadium, promotion and then 106. 3 prem seasons and a long stay in champ establishing ourselves as mid sized, top half championship club that predominantly challenged and had ambitions and aspirations of growth. (Recognising that was half the problem when the method of trying to realise those ambitions was destructive)

The reality is we’re not a big club and we don’t have a big fan base, realistically this won’t change short of doing a Birmingham or Wrexham or an extended stay in the prem which seems like a pipe dream atm.

Our average gates in the second tier are probably somewhere around 17-18k which is fairly mid table but these days probably towards the bottom.

We’re about 5k off that in league one and losing about 500 each season.

There’s an argument to be made we’re probably at our level, which I guess traditionally, makes sense. So do we want to accept that and fall back into that identity? Or try and be plucky Reading again that over performs? I’d prefer the latter but certainly not at the expense of the financial stability of the club.

Don’t think either has to come at the expense of entertainment though.

Unlike Stamball, which was dryer than a granny’s fanny, the style worked for us and we mostly controlled games by keeping the ball. We don’t seem to have a style it’s just be really bad on the edge of our own box and don’t try to attack.

I don’t see how we see any success with the turgid anti-football we have.

I can completely relate to your mindset. I've been a season ticket holder since the previous century but am not going to games at the moment and, like you, don't even follow them remotely, I just cannot stand what is being served up any more. Engaging with Reading FC at the moment is not an enjoyable experience and the fact that Couhig a) backs Richardson and b) is a stubborn bastard, means this will not change for the forseeable future.

The club would have died under Dai Youngge but, to my mind, it is in an induced coma under Couhig. Hopefully one day it will wake up and find its identity again.

This perfectly sums up how I feel.

Me too 100% except I still manage to drag myself to home games.
Wish I could break the habit, would save lots of time and money.

[Uke]

welcome back to the board country royal i hope your health has improved

Thank you Sir. Life is different now but we move.

I don’t remember ever consciously missing games before, be it going, watching or at the very least, listening. I’ve purposely not watched the last two games because I just can’t stomach it anymore. It’s a waste of a day.

For as long as I can remember I’d look forward to whenever we were playing regardless of how well we were doing, but that’s shifted in recent months and I no longer want to endure whatever shit is shoved down our throats and to be told it’s tasty.

I know extreme but I had goosebumps listening to the late stages of the Rochdale v York game, the only physiological response I get from Reading is incessant yawning and eye-rolling. Too apathetic for anger, just the hopeless resignation of: “yep.”

Hopefully the break will help and by the time the World Cup and next season’s fixture list release comes round, my passion will once again be reignited.

It’s difficult because I don’t think chopping and changing managers is the answer but we’re second best in pretty much every game, we’ve gotten worse, I think the squad is underperforming and LR hasn’t shown signs of adapting and pliability. Was the goal this season to finish in the top 10? If so we may still yet fail in that. A lot was made about RC & co over promising but the soundbites pre season all suggested intention. Even LR gaslighting us with his preferred style of play, front foot, attacking football. Do me a favour.

We need to return to the championship asap. We’re in a real danger of getting left behind imho. Our pièce de résistance is our academy and we can’t sustain it at this level. We’re still a big club for league one but I’d suggest a club of our size would now very much be a mid-lower sized and placed club in the second division.

We’re quickly losing our identity that we had built over the last 25 or so years, riding the wave of the new stadium, promotion and then 106. 3 prem seasons and a long stay in champ establishing ourselves as mid sized, top half championship club that predominantly challenged and had ambitions and aspirations of growth. (Recognising that was half the problem when the method of trying to realise those ambitions was destructive)

The reality is we’re not a big club and we don’t have a big fan base, realistically this won’t change short of doing a Birmingham or Wrexham or an extended stay in the prem which seems like a pipe dream atm.

Our average gates in the second tier are probably somewhere around 17-18k which is fairly mid table but these days probably towards the bottom.

We’re about 5k off that in league one and losing about 500 each season.

There’s an argument to be made we’re probably at our level, which I guess traditionally, makes sense. So do we want to accept that and fall back into that identity? Or try and be plucky Reading again that over performs? I’d prefer the latter but certainly not at the expense of the financial stability of the club.

Don’t think either has to come at the expense of entertainment though.

Unlike Stamball, which was dryer than a granny’s fanny, the style worked for us and we mostly controlled games by keeping the ball. We don’t seem to have a style it’s just be really bad on the edge of our own box and don’t try to attack.

I don’t see how we see any success with the turgid anti-football we have.

I can completely relate to your mindset. I've been a season ticket holder since the previous century but am not going to games at the moment and, like you, don't even follow them remotely, I just cannot stand what is being served up any more. Engaging with Reading FC at the moment is not an enjoyable experience and the fact that Couhig a) backs Richardson and b) is a stubborn bastard, means this will not change for the forseeable future.

The club would have died under Dai Youngge but, to my mind, it is in an induced coma under Couhig. Hopefully one day it will wake up and find its identity again.

But you'll want to be there when it wakes up

Which is the hope that gets us excited at the start of every season...

[Uke]

welcome back to the board country royal i hope your health has improved

Thank you Sir. Life is different now but we move.

+1 to Brogue's welcome back!